askerian | I don't like pity threesomes.

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I don't like pity threesomes.

I don't like pity threesomes.

It's funny because I used to be all over anything that was supposed to be a threesome. Alpha males Wufei and Heero are competing for Duo's sweet uke ass? Well, they ought to just share, Duo is worth it. Sakura isn't such a bad person? Sasuke and Naruto can let her join in.

I don't like it anymore.

I like "Male 1 and Male 2 have awesome, intense interaction that throws sparks everywhere! Hot!". I don't like it when it's combined with "Male 2 is canonly in love with a girl, even though he shows less intensity or determination toward her than toward Male 1 and that's less interesting to watch/write to me" (the lack of interest comes through in the fic!) or with "Male 2 has a canon girlfriend who is a pretty nice person and they seem pretty steady and committed as a couple so breaking it off for the sake of hooking them up with someone else means dilemmas -- likely Female 1 being painted as a bitch or their relationship as wrong somehow, or Male 2 looking like a heartless/fickle/heartbreaking asshole -- so that means I can't break them off!"

No, actually, I like it -- as a basis. A starting point. Something to progress away from.

There's kink threesome stories where all that really matters is the porny hotness, not the repercussions, and mary-sue stories where B and C compromising because having half of A is so much better than nothing and totally worth it only adds to the "yes, A *IS* that awesome" which is the biggest appeal of the story in the first place. They're not supposed to be convincing as to how stable the arrangement would realistically be.

Then there's the stories where I'm not sure why there's a threesome at all. Not that a threesome needs a better justification to be added to a plotty fic than any other kind of pet ship ("I'm the writer and I enjoy it, thanks" is good enough), but sometimes it's a fic where I'm *told* all three characters enjoy deep, important bonds, but the narrative impact/importance/depth is all placed on one of them... and then I start thinking, except for the porn this character could be a good friend of the couple and nothing would really change. Save that one or both of the other characters would have had to come out and say "sorry, I moved on."

I wish stories would just go with either other facets of polyamory then -- "I do not feel sexual attraction or romantic love for you but I understand that the person I love *does*, so let's be friends -- or at least treat each other with respect -- and agree on a way to share which will work best for everyone", for example -- or that they would go with the more painful but smarter choice of, yes, choosing one pairing and cutting the other side of the triangle loose.

It doesn't make a character inherently evil to have to reject people. And from a purely writer's craft point of view it injects some layers into the characters, something more nuanced than "omg if he broke her heart then he'd be a piece of shit, no way I can write about him as a good person anymore, so this must not happen!". It's hard and it's painful to have to inflict pain, but being unable to say "I like you; I like B more" and letting them believe otherwise is not all that kind, it's closer to cowardly. Most of the time it's not the author's intent to put out that kind of message, to make it clear that character A has a preference, but it seems to be the author's feeling because it's what the subtext keeps saying. "I like you a lot, no really, so now since I said it I'm going to spend a dozen chapters obsessing about B and it'll still come off as balanced."

I want stories that make me believe "I'm in love with you both and it's tearing me apart to think I might have to choose." Hell, I even want stories where someone WILL come out and say "I love B more strongly than I love you/if I have to choose it'll be B, but I still love you" and C will be "well, I'm okay with being your secondary relationship, because for X reason (I also have a primary relationship elsewhere; I'm not placing romance as my n°1 means of fulfillment, that's my job/my hobby/my family; I'm not that strongly romantic/social; ...) this is enough for my emotional needs."

I dislike reading about love triangles being solved by one of the sympathetic choices "losing" (urgh) or being rejected (ouch), but I sure hate it less than thinking, as I read a story, "oh god, none of them is fulfilled here, they're all settling for half their beloved's heart and living day-in day-out with the wearying thought that they're not enough or being taken for granted. This is going to end in tears and emotional exhaustion a couple years down the road." Or worse, "what an asshole A is being, all happy because he can have his cake and eat it too, while his two loved ones compromise with each other for his sake."

I hate reading a fic and thinking "character C is only onboard the hotsexy train because the author seems to think it's sufficient for C to be taken in because A and B like that person and find them fuckable, even though their most interesting, character-defining, plot-moving interaction consistently happens with each other." It's like, okay, you convinced me you LIKE person three, maybe even that you LOVE them, but are you in *love* with them?

More importantly, is it even plot-relevant? Is it more than the narrative giving lip service to the threesome idea while a pattern forms that shows otherwise? Is Zack being used as a shallower, kinky facilitator for the harder-to-start yet more interesting, deeper, more *real* interaction between Cloud and Sephiroth? Is Wufei tacked on to the Heero/Duo OTP because he's another hot Asian boy and he hasn't got any yaoi ship of his own amongst his peers? It's that disconnect, I think, which is the biggest issue I take with pity threesomes.

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By this rant, I'm not saying somehow I'm magical and my fics are exempt from that mindset and therefore I can sit on my chair and judge other writers. Walking the Tightrope was a clumsy, early attempt at dealing with that issue -- by making Wufei and Heero, already in love with Duo but only tolerating each other, discover and fall in love with each other as well. In doing that, Duo himself more or less fell by the wayside and was mostly there as a prop and an excuse for Wufei and Heero to interact. When I started writing Teamwork it was mostly because I was in love with narusasu but still in the flush of my "oh how could i have been so awful to Sakura, i'm gonna make it up to her by allowing her to join in on the hotness" shame. (woohoo the asuka was a sakura-hating yaoi twit in her early days.) After that I was so busy trying to build her bonds with the boys that I forgot to build their bonds with each other, so now it's gone from Sakura being a pity fuck while the boys had the real tension to the boys tolerating each other because they don't know who got her pregnant. Just because it's in my fics as well doesn't mean it's a trend I hate less in there. Teamwork, at least, is still in progress, so it's still an imperfect relationship, a situation that can be fixed.
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But well... I don't like pity threesomes. I'm willing to be convinced that this or that poly ship is truly a ship, a viable relationship, with love and nookie and all those good things, guys. I am soooo willing to be convinced. It's just...

Don't just tell me that they're in love, that they're solid. Show me. Show me the specific dynamics and the way they play off each other and the pitfalls and how they're unique and how they're working as an item. I think that's an issue that shows up everywhere, and with the same solution too.

... and I tried to explain this post to a friend and managed to summarize the whole thing in two lines WHY DID I TYPE SO MANY WORDS FOR THIS. DX

askerian: you know, the stories where A and B have awesome interaction and C mostly seems to be there because they like him/her okay and cutting them out would seem sexist/mean

askerian: like being second best or taken for granted and as a second class citizen in your relationship is better than being broken up with

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I wish stories would just go with either other facets of polyamory then -- "I do not feel sexual attraction or romantic love for you but I understand that the person I love *does*, so let's be friends -- or at least treat each other with respect -- and agree on a way to share which will work best for everyone",

THAT PLZ. I agree with that, for serious.

it would at least mean some variety. ;_; i mean, i love the "three people all love each other" configuration the best of all, but for some triangles it just doesn't work.

Yay, mature viewpoints on human relationships and sexuality! Yes, people who are new to the concept of polyamory in action forget, I think (or aren't aware) that there are different kinds of poly relationships. A V-configuration, where one person is having simultaneous sexual relationships with two different people and those people are both aware and maybe friends or also cohabit... those happen. They happen plenty. Apparently Charlie Sheen is in a relationship like that. And of all the things that I think are wrong with Charlie Sheen, from what I see of it as an outsider I think his living arrangements are a pretty openly communicative poly deal.

But when I'm reading a fic with a three-way pairing, I usually like to see more of a triangle arrangement. Everyone is an equal partner and into everyone else in a more or less equally loving and lustful way. That's my favourite thing in fic. I have never liked the pity threesome.

...this makes me want to research Charlie Sheen. >__> *voyeursuka* it's research, honest! D:

Three-way love is my fave too, but I'd rather see vees or love-daisy-chains than pity three-ways. T__T

"Don't just tell me that they're in love, that they're solid. Show me. Show me the specific dynamics and the way they play off each other and the pitfalls and how they're unique and how they're working as an item. I think that's an issue that shows up everywhere, and with the same solution too."

You know, this was what I was TRYING to do when I wrote the Menage universe -- the one where Al and Ed and Scieszka and Winry were all in a sort of open-relationship family-raising collab deal. I wrote a bunch of different scenes showing the different combinations together because I wanted to explore the ways in which they interacted with each other. And it was actually a huge relief to me when a friend I know who DOES have experience with poly ships told me "Yanno, they don't ALL have to be having sex with each other." Because it meant that Al and Scieszka could be close friends and coparents despite the fact that I just could not muster any sexual tension between them.

I loved The Menage universe, it was so full of adorableness. ;^; ... it's been a while, I think I'm due for a re-read. >__>

Because it meant that Al and Scieszka could be close friends and coparents despite the fact that I just could not muster any sexual tension between them.
this part I really like. ^^

yanno, i love this post like burning, and i totally agree. maybe i take fanfic too seriously when really it's typically a playpen for little kids as a general rule, BUT it bothers and bores me to no end when a promising pairing or group relationship falls into any of those awkward set ups. I think it's really hard to find a group of characters or author that can pull it off- the most common OT3 i've managed to see done well is the Eliot/Hardison/Parker triad from Leverage (see pic lol). It helps that they get grouped together in the show and that they have fantastic balance and practical working-well-together chemistry. Also Hardison/Parker are canon, but in an awkwardly realistic way that makes it as confusing as real life relationships. And all three interact one on one with each other really well, which is one of the biggest problems i notice in those kinds of fics- the author obviously thinks of the group as a porn-tastic whole as opposed to individuals who might have to interact with each other and have separate and personal relationships outside of the bedroom. I'd much prefer to read a story that gets into the problems that come alone with that kind of complex relationship as well as the good parts, as opposed to some flat-lined story that doesn't seem very... human, i guess. =/
thanks for voicing all the complaints i have in my own head, it makes them seem so much less ridiculous. =) who says you can't have standards for fanfic?

Yes. I have "triangular relationships (sometimes threesomes)" set as an LJ interest somewhere. I don't think all "OT3s" need to end in the three characters being exactly equally in love with each other in every way--that's boring and unrealistic. The differences are what makes them interesting.

I think NaruSasu is more intense, NaruSaku more companionable, SasuSaku more romantic, and the three different relationships combine in different ways than just "all of them fall into bed together."

I ship Yuri/Estelle/Rita, because I love Estelle's relationship with both of them and I love Yuri and Rita bonding over their shared desire to love and protect Estelle, but I don't want to see Yuri and Rita fucking. That's okay. That can be an OT3 too.

And so on. (Not even going to get into Alto/Sheryl/Ranka right now because the fandom and the canon both have me pissed off. But that's another one where they all relate on different levels and all are inseparable.)

**nods** I strongly dislike pity threesomes. One of the things we worked at with Three Thieves was to draw it away from Shinichi-and-Ran + Kid and make it Shinichi-Ran-Kid, i.e., the love and the respect being a mutual thing-- Ran doesn't love Kid because Shinichi does, but because she got the chance to know him and explore him through Shinichi's opening the door. I don't know if we did it right or wrong, but it's what we've aimed for.

One of the things that 'sinks' a ship for me is the lack of occasional conflict. I don't mean that they have to battle it out with clubs or have shouting matches, but three strong personalities (and they have to be strong to survive the tides of a threesome) aren't going to willingly hook together without there being strains and disagreements. Everything's multiplied, the good and the bad; it has to be.

Whew; thanks for the opportunity to say the above stuff. ^_^

You raise a lot of good points with this. It's a subject I've been thinking about in the back of my head (though not nearly as detailed as this), because I've been worried about falling into it. In KH, there's one pair of the Destiny Trio I ship about thirty times more than any of the other angles, and it's gotten to the point that I've had to rip out chunks of chapters and practically write them again from whole cloth to avoid skewing what's supposed to be a universe with a threesome into a twosome with a mutual intense friendship with a third.

I'm glad you took so many words to say it! That gives more to think about. *grin*

What you say it's true. In fact most of the threesome fics I've read go from just 1 chapter long to 3 chapters long, and it tends to focus in sex, or other characters point of view (Like Kakashi and his varying traumas, or Hinata, or Sai, etc.)
And as I was reading your rant/auto flame?/commentary/thought, I did remember some of the things I found weird in Teamwork, like the weird love balance: Naruto loves more Sakura, who loves more Sasuke, who loves more Naruto, that seems to translate to: Sakura wants to be fucked by Sasuke, who want to be fucked by Naruto, who wants to be fucked by Sakura (Riding? Maybe. I don't know), but that way you don't put Sasuke's need to be male, his pride, and his need to be better or at least equal to Naruto, but you put a lot of Naruto's (And Kyuubi's) lust for Sasuke, he doesn't seem to be willing to be fucked (I think I need to read your fic again, because I think he was willing, if not a bit nervous?). I think Sasuke and Naruto to be equals do need to screw each other, and do the same to poor Sakura.
About Sakura, I think you did a good work starting with her. That way we don't start with others fics (And the manga) preconceptions of her, like that she's useless, a cry baby, an obsessive stalker, and a bitch for being how she is to Naruto, and how she is a 'really slow starting' kunoichi because she was following Sasuke around, not training. I like how you made Sakura. She's what the boys lack and that keep them grounded. I like how she's growing a backbone (Or a good pair of...) and is no longer so scared to say and do what she needs, that way she wont be thrown away from the trio, even if Sasuke and Naruto keep their 'little boys club'.
I love that Naruto thrives in the love of his teammates, and I feel that his heart is actually growing to love more of Sasuke and the baby, so don't worry about making them feel like they are together only for the situation. Sasuke is also learning to be part of others (Though I feel that sometimes they push too much... He seems to like it?).
(I refered to your fic, because I feel the same about pity pairings and the other lot of unbalanced threesomes)

Thank you for your fics (I'm actually regularly stalking your livejournal to see when you get other Naruto ficlet/drable/chapter... <3)

Huh. I think this really puts into words that odd, funny feeling I had about a fic recently- a feeling that had me stop reading it and all. Character C was included in the mix because if Character A abandoned them for B, they would be a jerk/totally out of canon. :P But as not much of a writer, that IS a hard dilemma, so I cannae judge beyond not wanting to read.

okay I don't think I understand all over this because I'm a) drunk and b) tired. BUT. FROM WHAT I DID GATHER, I agree with a lot of what you said.

This is slightly diverging but I feel I should add, (also sorry if I'm crude, but hey, drunk!) This is kinda translating to my issue at the moment. I'mmmmmm a pretty attractive female, that is ... pretty adventurous in bedrooms (won't give you TMI...) I make no secrets of it, so I tend to get invited to other couples beds... I turn it down most times, but the times I do accept is... I have to be sure both parties are interested in me, like really sure and I am interested in both back. Otherwise, oh jesus THE AWKWARD. But if its not, someone feels exactly like you said, a consolation prize, second class and kept around just because. The times that its balanced = holy shit, amazing.

Like, :FFF, my singular Poly relationship. They'd been going out for a year, and well, I started talking to Him and it was His interest first, but She was a little scared, and goddamn I tried, tried to coax her, but she realised she was uh, bi-romantic, but no bisexual. She didn't mind the cuddling and etc, but wasn't interested in anything else, which knocked everything way out of whack. ~~Admittedly, I think we could of worked through it, but they turned out to be BATSHIT CRAZY, so that ended that.~~

Also because, pet hatred: Having a OPEN YET COMMITED RELATIONSHIP in which you are okay with your other messing around time to time but still returning to you IS NOT POLYGAMY. Hogod, so often, I cry.

as much as I love Yaoi, I prefer a little bit of reality in my fics.

I have nothing against triangles, they are perfectly enjoyable reads, when well written. I think what really irks me, is when you find 5 boys, from all different walks of life, and they dont have a lot in common, until of course they form those brotherly bonds from war, and lo and behold all 5 are gay as can be and end up madly in love with each other.

Now, that said, when i go looking for fics, I sternly look for 3x4 above all else, and typically in any 3x4 you will always find either 1x2 or 5x2 or 1x5 or some variation there of.

But I think Strait Wu Fei brings a nice bit of normalcy into the picture.
Even in canon. I think 3x4 is extremely likely, and I think Heero is so out of the norm, that its quite possible, even if he was purely strait, that he could become gay through a 'bond' with Duo. But really when you have 2 gay relationships in a show about 5 boys, theres no real reason to ship the 5th one into a threesome with one of the other two, just cause he's the odd man out, specially when the writers provided him with more than enough female characters to be shipped with. Specially when he is canonically at least somewhat strait having been married, even if it was a political marriage.

As far as yer fics go, ive enjoys all the triangly hotness that they contain, theyre well written and very enjoyed, But i think even in the best written fics, such things can be quite idealistic.

this post is quite interesting to me because until recently the only threesome fic I really read was your teamwork because I like your writing and I was willing to see were it went and just the story is awesome and fun and I stuck with it, but other than that threesomes never really were my cup of tea

but now I started to really get into the White collar fandom, where I actually do have an OT3 and while there is some fics with not very good handling of the concept i thought as a whole fandom handled the three way affection (and the problems inherent in that) pretty well, but now I read your post...I think I may start to go over the fics I read there with a new viewpoint and examining them a little closer, so thank you for stimulating my fangirl thought processes ;)

(even so, I still think the best the fandom has produced are pretty thought through and balanced accounts of their threesome relationship, so maybe check the show(and fandom) out when you want to^^)

I think, as you said the unique dynamics of each relationship are what's important.

Each of the issues you bring up - all of them can work really well if they are acknowledged in the fic and made a part of the story, rather than just left to the side as if the author is hoping the reader will ignore them and be distracted by the sexy.

Difficult relationships are realistic. Just because communication and equality/fairness is the poly ideal, it doesn't always mean it will be there. So maybe A is being an ass. Maybe B and C are fucking A cause of pity - if a writer acknowledges it, and the characters acknowledge it, it can make good fic and can even be hot (in that same way that fucked up twisted itasasu is hot.) But like you say, please don't tell me everything is shiny, when everything is clearly not.

I totally agree with this. I adore threesome fics that are well-planned, that have the characters interacting believably, where they are in love and want to be together despite how weird it might be. I don't like threesomes that throw characters together because it's convenient, or because it's hot.

Honestly, I think that's why I enjoy Teamwork so much. Sure, they're having problems right now, but they started off with that kind of bond. They're working towards being properly happy in a three-way relationship, not just hanging around each other because it's easier that way. I know it seems murky sometimes, but as a polyamorous woman it's actually really inspiring to know that a story like this is out there. Threesome relationships can happen, and they can mean something. So if nothing else, I want to thank you for that.

I've got a baaaad feeling about Teamwork future reading this post. Please tell me I'm wrong :)

No breaking up is in the cards. XD Beyond that, hey, they've got to have somewhere to progress to.

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I don't like pity threesomes.

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