naruto manga - pairings talk

[askerian]

So I was thinking, and bad things tend to happen when I do. >__>;;

Sakura must be the most lopsidedly emotionally stunted girl ever.

Part 1: loves Sasuke in a shallow, fangirly way => learns to know who he really is deep down (ie a broken, hurt, scared boy) and really understands him => loves him anyway but in a deep, desperate way. (note: is 13 year old. That shows some emotional maturity. At that age I was still wondering why it made me so happy to spend the night copying song lyrics by hand for some girl in my class who never talked to me much, just because I hoped she'd give me one of her super-nice smiles. Dunno about you guys. >__>)

Part 2: spends two years and then some training to get back some guy, obsessed by the idea of getting him back, crying over the team picture at night, being crushed when some random nin (yay Karui) mentions him and how he might have changed, and yet despite all that thinking she does on the topic of Uchiha Sasuke and how much it hurts to think he might not be the boy she remembers, doesn't notice her romantic feelings for him have been fading and/or turning into something purely sisterly.

Meanwhile there's some leeway to interpret scenes as implying that she's been falling for Naruto for the last year. Okay, that kind of feeling can indeed sneak upon someone...


Sai: "Naruto loves you. Everything he does, he does it for you. You hurt him SO BAD."
Sakura: *crushed look of shock and horror*

Let's all agree to say it came as a bit of a surprise to her? At least the depth of it -- I think she's not so retarded as to completely miss the "Is this a date??!"s. >_>;;;

Her reaction to it seems to lack some "omg and here I was, suffering in silence on my side because I thought he wasn't serious about his feelings! But it's mutual!! :D Oh, I just have to tell him so, and then, well, okay, he might be a bit bummed because he was so completely sold on the idea of me and Sasuke but I can still want Sasuke as a teammate while being in love with someone else, damn it, it's not like Sasuke ever said he might love me back anyway, team seven will be fine" ... there's only shock, guilt and grief. Where's the revelation, the guilty happiness?

It's more of a "Oh god. I did that to him? Oh god. I didn't know -- I should have seen it, oh god, I never meant to hurt him like that, is this my fault?" It could progress to "it really hurts me to hurt Naruto... I can't stand to see him hurt... because... oh. I think -- I think I love him." It could also progress to "we're friends and I never meant to lead him on, I feel so sorry for him, what do I do to fix that?" Both interpretation are, at this point, equally valid.

But let's discard the "Sakura was aware of her romantic feelings for Naruto before that point" interpretation. It's just been proved invalid.

Not that it wasn't hinted at before that point that she just wasn't looking at Naruto that way. For her, Naruto isn't a handsome young man -- he's Naruto.


¤ She didn't notice when Naruto was blurting out his "date plz?" that he was serious about it. Okay, Naruto wasn't asking in a serious manner and never seemed bummed when it didn't pan out. The way she rejected it offhand was still a hint that she wasn't making the "Naruto + romance?" connection, or so fast that she barely had the time to think "naruto+romancHAHAHAHANO. Oh hey a butterfly."

¤ She's devastated at the thought of being useless, and then Yamato "speaks her thoughts", she just has to fill in the blanks! "Sakura, in reality you..."
The gist of the discussion :
Sakura: Naruto, stop torturing yourself, I'll save Sasuke on my own!
Kyuubi: *DENIED*
Naruto: *burninated horribly*
Sakura: *heal heal T^T* ... this is not enough. He's doing so much. I wish I could do something to help him. ...Can I learn to control Kyuubi?
Yamato: Nope, sorry.
Sakura: T^T but just healing isn't doing enough for him.
Yamato: What you DO isn't what matter the most to him...
*Interpretation n°1: What matters is that you even WANT to help him / care enough to want to help. Your intentions matter more in making him feel understood and supported than your acts.
*Interpretation n°2: What matters is that you're in love with him.
Either one works. Apparently, her O_O face wasn't one of revelation but one of FINISH YOUR SENTENCE. WHAT? because the fallout? We would have seen it at some point. It was over 150 chapters ago and Sakura didn't give it a second thought. Obviously while she might have made the "care?" connection she didn't make the "romance?" connection.

¤ She has been aware of Hinata's feelings all along -- granted, back when she hinted at Naruto "Hinata watches you all the time" during the chuunin tournament, she wasn't interested in Naruto at ALL, and in the meantime maybe she forgot.
(Then she got to see Hinata go OMG NARUTO D: for Naruto being kicked into a freakin' pond, but once again, she forgot.)
But then she gets a MAJOR reminder that Hinata loves Naruto in the form of Hinata's self-sacrifice -- both that "Naruto = serious romantic partner" is actually a possible equation, and that someone else has just made a move! She should have switched from "teammate-friend-brother Naruto as someone's romantic partner?" to "Naruto as MY romantic partner?" right there. Instead, even then she STILL had no clue, no trigger, no realization.

Hinata got several pages for her declaration and sacrifice, yet for such a major realization as Sakura finally noticing who she really loves (which should warrant some attention because it not only affects Naruto and Sakura's subplot, but also Hinata's character development) we get *one* small panel of Sakura looking sad? Not surprised, not torn -- just sad? And there could be no reason for Sakura to be sad than her being jealous, when Hinata lay there bleeding and half dead after such a desperate act? But her only thought was "Hinata, for Naruto you..." which was about HINATA's motive -- whereas if she were jealous she should probably have started worrying that Naruto might love Hinata back. Sakura didn't get even one thought about Naruto's side of things.

She wasn't jealous over Hinata's confession. Sad, yes? Disappointed in her for taking the risk? Understanding because she'd done the same before? Who knows. But the jealousy is subtext at best; it's never expressed. For such a major plot point?


¤ Then Naruto almost dies, and goes eight tails, and she's seen four tails up close and personal so of course she probably freaks! And then Naruto comes back alive, and OMG the relief, and the hug!
The hug.
Her body didn't lean into his as if her spine had melted, with her arms as far around him as they would go. She just hugged around his neck with her forearms, standing straight, her face looking straight onward instead of turned even slightly into his neck. That body language = platonic. Compare to her tackling Sasuke in the hospital, or in the forest of death, or against Haku and Zabuza.
The hug happened in public and yet no one saw anything embarrassing about it -- Japanese people are very much O_o on public shows of affection. Even if they all approved their new hero getting booty, at least someone would have whistled or something; no one seemed to find it shocking or kind of daring at all. Hinata, a Hyuuga (skilled at reading body language!), seemed to see nothing shocking about it either. One tiny smiling panel was apparently enough to convey that her character arc, which has been developing from her appearance to culminate into her declaration... was over, just like that, with not even the need to have a "no thanks" talk with Naruto -- just a tiny smiling panel somehow meaning "and the end of my character arc is that I understand and accept the implicit "no thanks" with no sadness whatsoever and I'm happy to see you in the arms of the woman you love, and I am not surprised at all at seeing that she loves you back because I knew it all along despite never being shown to be aware of having a rival before." It packs a lot, for such a small panel, doesn't it. >__>;; Sakura is now aware of Hinata's feelings -- is she enough of a bitch to go and hug Naruto with deliberate romantic intent under her nose when the girl just almost died for him? Maybe the hug really was just... gratefulness. Relief.
One page later, that great show-don't-tell wordless declaration of love was forgotten as Naruto and Sakura go about their business with zero self-consciousness or fluttery feelings or... anything.
That hug proved that Sakura was finally acknowledging in public that she admired and respected Naruto, and that she cared for his wellbeing... but even so she STILL did not make the "I'm so relieved he's alive... = I LOVE HIM?" math.

So...

Naruto hits on her sometimes out of the blue. She doesn't react in a romantic way, not even in a "that idiot, I wish he were serious" way -- she just rebuffs him and forgets about it.

She gets a chance to hand-feed broken-arm'd Naruto -- and Sai and Kakashi steal her chance, and she absolutely does not mind.

Yamato almost tells her (or so people say), she doesn't realize his meaning and never thinks about it again.

Hinata shows her that Naruto can SO make a good boyfriend, she doesn't notice that he could make a good boyfriend for HER.

Hinata threatens to take Naruto away, Sakura doesn't seem to mind.

And then Sai goes and point blank tells her... and she's utterly stunned.
"He loves you!"
Her first reaction? "Oh my god I'm so sorry ;___;" Her second? A vaguely resigned "I have to go talk to him."

I'm still waiting for the dawning "... me too. o_o"

If she's in love with him now then she shows less maturity and self-awareness with this at 16 than about Sasuke at 12, when she was still a shallow fangirl! It's not Kishimoto milking it for suspense purposes, it's just plain retarded. Well, YES, she could have developing feelings -- in between the panels that were actually there! There were DOZENS of occasions to put in some #o.o# moments without actually advancing the situation between the two of them if he really needed to drag it on until some big plot twist, something that would have shown us that her feelings were turning romantic even though she didn't notice. Instead Kishimoto always ruined it somehow. (having Yamato catching her as she fell, having Sakura fail to be embarrassed at being caught feeding Naruto ramen and "ahah ^^;;;;" in the last panel with Kakashi feeding Naruto instead of completely cut out of the moment, proving the joke had been all on Naruto and none on her... actually showing some jealousy when Hinata went OMG NARUTO INNA POND -- no, sorry, one tiny placement shot of "watch the enemy and stop worrying about him" with zero emphasis on her expression wasn't it...)

If Sakura really loves Naruto, then I don't know what happened during her training. Maybe Tsunade went on a brain surgery trip or something. Because there's a major problem with how apparently she can't tell her own feelings even when 1) he almost dies omgnoes!! 2) he behaves AWESOMELY and in a hot mature hero way, 3) someone threatens to steal him away and 4) SEVERAL PEOPLE BEAT HER OVER THE HEAD WITH IT.


Somehow I just can't convince myself this little trip is going to end in an easy, heart-warming "Naruto, I love you too" the second she sees him again. She's always been depicted as a self-aware, emotionally mature, romance-centered person. Her feelings have got to be underneath several underneaths for her to have missed them for so long.



Oh, NaruSaku might still develop from there, I'm not saying it absolutely can't -- but she would have to to start falling for Naruto NOW. Because right now... she isn't.

She has a good, solid base for it -- she loves him as a friend, and depends on him, and respects him, and admires him, and cares for him and his wellbeing a hell of a lot, and they have fun together. Building a deep love on it could work fine once they had no prior entanglements to get out of the way. But the romantic angle? It's just plain not here yet. She shows no special body language, no blushes, she doesn't confide in him on her feelings of uselessness or her other worries -- he doesn't confide in her on his own issues (peace VS revenge, the big issue? not a mention to her, he takes it all upon his shoulders. Mourning Jiraiya? Same. Etcetera.), they never have a serious talk where they drop their masks and allow each other to see their insecurities -- not any that doesn't revolve around Sasuke in some way. Maybe it will stop after they have the "btw Sai told me something interesting!" talk! Maybe, or maybe not.

Then again, seeing how Naruto is only shown to be serious about his feelings when he's talking about having given up on declaring himself to her (that's three times in 400 chapters or thereabouts), and supporting her own feelings for his best friend, it's pretty obvious he can prrrobably survive it if she tells him "you're my bestest best friend forever, you're strong, I acknowledge you, you're one of my most important people. Now let's save Sasuke together." I have a feeling he kind of, you know, saw it coming, he'd be more happy for them than bummed for himself (though still probably a little bummed, I mean, that's human), and it's not like romance was ever one of his big life goals anyway.

He wanted people's respect and acknowledgement. He already has hers, and she recently proved it in public. That's bad how?


The way all the characters have been written, the themes, the body langage, the manga shortcuts and social context -- I've been pretty sure it wasn't going to happen for a while now. Sakura just doesn't love him romantically. And after 400 chapters, it's going to come off as a bit of a surprise if she just starts to now. She's had so many triggers for it already.

Also there is WAY too much Sasuke in this twosome. What would they talk about on their dates? How well his rehabilitation is coming? How much it proves they're on the same wavelength of soulmatey love when they both slip up and cry out Sasuke's name in the throes of passion? ohyesplz.

But hey, if I read the manga wrong we'll know it pretty soon and you'll all get to laugh at me.

But then I'll seriously wonder when Sakura got her lobotomy.

Comments

[just-shai.livejournal.com]

Gaaah, need to catch up. But I've gone and started the manga from the beginning because I wanted to see how/if it was different from the cartoon.

I'm only on the FIFTH graphic novel! *wail*

[askerian]

Oh man XD;; Well, when it's about the main storyline, the two aren't too different, they just lengthen some scenes for the anime and perhaps move around a couple of scenes so it'll work better -- the content is the same, though sometimes they take a good while to get through it. But those two years of random *stuff* between the valley of the end narusasu fight and naruto's return to konoha don't exist. And starting in part 2 the anime team started adding little made-up arcs here and there so they'd be sure not to catch up to the manga again, urgh. So the manga is bound to seem to move a lot faster than the anime does. (and also have less random nins with incredibly coincidental connections to naruto. >____>; ) So if you really just want to see the differences you should start on the 28th novel. Unless you hadn't watched the anime that far?

[quoth-the-ravyn.livejournal.com]

I think that is a super fantastic look at everything. Of course, I like Sasu/Saku, Saku/Naru Saku/Sasu/Naru and basically a whole lot of other pairings that are completely not cannon, so I won't be crushed here. I think what is important are those triggers you talked about: where is the build up if there is going to be build up?

Team 7 is such a pinwheel of emotions and bonds and devotion anyway you just know those three are going to have mad sex be connected regardless of what happens romantically with them anyway. And you totally can't say that Sakura's 12 year old emotions are not valid and then try to say that a 12 year old Naruto's are. If Naruto followed through this far with *his* then you have to accept the fact that Sakura has the ability to follow through on her own. =)

[askerian]

Mmh. *_* That's why I'll like it better if SS is the one of the three that turns canon. NaruSasu is already supermega intense and nothing will ever get between them and they're so passionate it's easy to turn it into sex, and narusaku has this mutual friendship thing. If Sakura dumps her romantic feelings for Sasuke before he even gets a chance to decide whether he wants to try giving her a chance, it greatly weakens the bond and I don't see her deciding to change her mind later on, or Sasuke putting away his pride to accept what he might see as pity fucks on behalf of Naruto. It weakens the chances for narusasusaku too much! I cannot allow it. >;(

... seriously, it's just that sasusaku needs more canon material to keep the three sides balanced in shiny moments. XD


God, I hate that double standard. Naruto keeping the faith is portrayed admirable and proof of his being special and pure and greater than normal people re: forgiveness and ability to make impossible things happen and fix painful conflicts. But Sakura? That's just her being a blind fangirl. Her growing up means she has to learn to give up. That's mature and totally good for her character development and it totally doesn't make her come across as if she's settling! rrrrgh. Cynical =/= mature. rrrrrgh.

[phantomshade]

I really want to make an intelligent comment about this, but other than the fact that I agree wholeheartedly with just about everything you said I'm not sure I have anything to really say. Sakura seems to see her relationship with Naruto as being more sibling-like, based on mutual support of one another, and not really romantic or potentially romanic (for now). And I really don't think Sakura is in any way emotionally stunted enough to not pick up on her own feelings towards Naruto...not even with a lobotomy.

How much it proves they're on the same wavelength of soulmatey love when they both slip up and cry out Sasuke's name in the throes of passion? ohyesplz.
...I like the way you think.

[askerian]

... *uses appropriate icon*

It's crazy how no matter what happens, it keeps being both IC and appropriate, isn't it? u.u~

[proanon.livejournal.com]

Just a random aside - Sasuke flat-out told Sakura that Naruto was looking out for her. I think it was in the aftermath of the Gaara incident. You could argue that at that point, she was still suffering tunnel vision from her feelings for Sasuke - as you said, she's twelve - but still, that's yet another fumbled opportunity.

[askerian]

Oh, very good point. She even had a sort of startled look and then a rueful/tender little smile at Naruto.

AND YET IT STILL DIDN'T TRIGGER HER HIDDEN LOVE. *gasp* What, emotions other than the romantic ones in a shonen manga about friendship? Surely you jest. D:

[annwyd.livejournal.com]

Even though I haven't read Naruto in years? You pretty much just summed up my thoughts on NaruSaku. Great solid friendship, highly meaningful to both their character arcs...not so much with the endgame romance.

To be honest, to me it's always been the least romantic of the three relationships. SasuSaku has all the canon stuff--the declaration of love from Sakura, the dramatic hugging, the dramatic "Thank you" from Sasuke, the lack of a platonic friendship to fall back on if it isn't romantic (which could be a negative for some people, I'll acknowledge that, but for me it isn't). NaruSasu has the intensity of the main m/m relationship in a shounen manga, plus all the ambiguity that so often gets me going on pairings--"you're my best friend!" "Am I? Or am I like a brother? I don't know, I think maybe you're like a brother to me but RARR I WILL FIGHT YOU I WILL SAVE YOU."

NaruSaku has...Naruto's crush at the beginning of the manga, joking flirting in Part II, Sai's possible misunderstanding, and a solid developing friendship. If people want to ship based on that I understand--I'm not big on solid-friendships-turned-romantic in my shipping preferences, personally, unless there's some special twist--but it just doesn't seem to have the spark in canon.

[askerian]

*nodnod* Naruto/Sasuke is so crazily intense, it doesn't need the explicit romance to give it a, well, a potentially romantic vibe. XD

If you take the romance out of sasusaku there's not a lot of the bond left. Whereas narusaku has now been solidly established, even as it currently is, a friendship, and adding a layer of lurve on it wouldn't really fill any gap. Their biggest gap is their lack of deeper communication and that should be fixed first. They already support each other almost unconditionally anyway. So if you want to keep the team balanced...

[pochibubblytea.livejournal.com]

This was so enlightening :Db

[askerian]

I -- I feel mocked. ;__; *is a nerd okay SO WHAT*

[gabzillaz.livejournal.com]

Well, Sakura is not the only one. Something tells me Sasuke got a lobotomy for the same price.

That said, I demand to have your babies. <3 This was absolutely fantastic.

Also: "naruto+romancHAHAHAHANO. Oh hey a butterfly."

XD

[askerian]

Sasuke at least has the plausable excuse of being under Madara's influence and also crazed by lack of naru cock grief... That's easily fixable! Just jump in bed with your teammates get rid of Madara!

*coughcough* >.>;;

*has babies with* *vigorously*

[questofdreams.livejournal.com]

nnfff, I love it when you talk meta ♥

[askerian]

#u.u# ♥

--shit, i never did this week's chapter babble.

... oh well. Next time I'll do two! (or just, you know, skip this week's entirely. >.>)

[(Anonymous)]

That would be hilarious.

*Sakura calls out Sasuke's name during sex*
Naruto: =(
Sakura: Oh, like you've never done it!
Naruto: ... that's fair.

-- Guile

[askerian]

... Someone needs to write it.

... Someone who is not me. >____>

[mya-in-ab.livejournal.com]

"How much it proves they're on the same wavelength of soulmatey love when they both slip up and cry out Sasuke's name in the throes of passion? ohyesplz."

Ded. ^_^ Oh wow. Totally killed me. ^_^ Broke a rib trying not to laugh too loud and bug people...and I died of internal bleeding. :DDDDDDDD

[askerian]

Oh noes, your yummy corpse is stuck on the other end of the internet! Boohoo, my barbecue.

*... cough* .__. I just woke up. Pay no attention to the loopiness.

[marikunin.livejournal.com]

*loves this post*
Now I have some good stuff to say to NaruSaku shippers without really hurting their feelings! :D
*is a NaruHina and SasuSaku shipper*
-Mary

[askerian]

... XDD;;;

Well. "Your pairing ain't happening" just isn't very nice to say to any kind of shipper, whether you're right or not. I dunno how useful this ramble will be. XD

[notyourmum.livejournal.com]

Aww the lyrics thing is the most adorablest ever.
And SasuSakuNaru...is the most canonest thing, right after NaruSasu. You are always so right. xD

[askerian]

#._______________.# Man, I was so clueless.

♥

[venia.livejournal.com]

Ghh ;_; something came over me. *big moist eyes* Because I worship this threesome thing-- I want it, I want it so much to happen~! And I will hate Kishi if he skips all this logic and ruins it all. Bet he'll wait until last chapter for Sakura to simply go 'Naruto, I love you too' which is not logical after the complete lack of jealousy on her part and every chance/hint at romance being ruined to just mean 'deep friendship' so far indeed. Has she ever even blushed at Naruto? o_O Can't remember.

But I had always interpreted the 'crying over team photo' scene as Sakura being sorry that she has moved over Sasuke and fallen for Naruto, something along the lines of 'Sasuke forgive me, but after seeing Naruto smiling at me like that with his arm still in plaster...' ^^; hehehe it felt more interesting than the generally adopted version of 'sasuke, I miss you'. Or even better, I like to think she cried because she was torn between the both of them. I know it's wrong, sush. It's my personal wish thought. >.>

[askerian]

She blushed at Naruto during the first time they saw each other after 2 years of separation. XD it went kinda like that:

"(ooh naruto has CHANGED he's a young man now!) So... do I look more like a woman now? *blush smile*"
"Not at all! :D :D :D"
"... -____-;;;; (nevermind, older or not, he's still NARUTO.)"

Hm, that interpretation might work, but the thing is that her crying scene is put in parallel with Naruto looking at the stars and then finding a new determination to work -- and we know because kakashi told us that his renewed strength comes from Sasuke, so it makes sense that Sakura's despair also came from Sasuke. It kind of paralleled another moment where Sakura was the one who had faith and Naruto was the depressed one. (... now I forget which, but I'm sure that happened. Argh. need to read again.)

Also we now know that she still hasn't fallen for Naruto, at least consciously, so she wouldn't be crying about it. XD;;;

... I really like the idea that she would be torn between the two of them, though, because that's SO EASY to fix. :D Naruto has already proved he wouldn't be jealous, and Sasuke needs loving! mmmh. *__*

[maruiqi.livejournal.com]

On a purely personal shippy level, I'd prefer it if Kishimoto didn't pair any of Team Seven up. Just sort of ended on a "more than friends~ soul bond teamwork~<3" reunited vibe and left them staring into the sunset all holding hands or something so that I can imagine they then turn around and have hot sex and he just didn't draw it.

To protect the minds of the innocent children. u__u Of course.

But, yeah, no ships would be nice. I like their current threewayish, UST-laden, frenemyendship soul bond with each other.

Though, for some reason, I so see him killing off one of Team Seven just to fuck with us because he appears to get his kicks doing that. My money's on Naruto, to be honest, even though I wish it wasn't.

[askerian]

Me too, i'd like it better without pairings. ;_; Because the team seven bonds are always going to trump everything anyway, and no matter that there are hundreds of ways to break up Hinata and Naruto without bashing her, I'd still prefer if I didn't have to do it at all. XDD God, I'm so biased.

threewayish, UST-laden, frenemyendship soul bond
... that's the bestest way to put it EVER.


Nooo, no way, Naruto needs to become Hokage first!! D:

[dragon695.livejournal.com]

which should warrant some attention because it not only affects Naruto and Sakura's subplot, but also Hinata's character development
Maybe I missed the point here, but Hinata's character does not seem to have changed much at all. What she did was daring, but incredibly stupid and useless. We expect this from Naruto because he isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed, but even he has learned not to be so hasty without even a plan. That and he can usually pull it off because he knows his own strength. Hinata did absolutely no good and it was a waste of her life to act in such a careless manner. If she really loved Naruto and really wanted to help him, she would have taken a moment to devise a decent plan to help him out. She had no idea that her actions would do anything other than inconvenience Pain for 3 seconds. Honestly, it seemed to me to be more like a pathetic cry for attention than anything else. The fact that she did even land a single blow on Pain speaks volumes. I mean even Konohamaru could do that! Hinata changed? I don't think so, just her desire to get Naruto's attention had reached a crescendo. That and she provided a useful plot device to get Naruto to talk with his father. The level of contempt that Kishimoto shows towards Hinata is quite amazing. I mean, at least Sakura, Ino, and Tenten do not come off even close to being that pathetic. I still believe that he was "forced" to add her in order to appease his editors' desire for the "moe" element.

[askerian]

Yes. You missed the point.

It's your right to hate Hinata. But it's also obvious you can't analyze her from an in-universe point of view.

Yondaime died for his village. That was seen as noble. Sasuke "died" to save Naruto from Haku. Sakura stood between KOed Sasuke and half-Shuukaku'd Gaara even though she had only one silly little kunai in hand. That was noble. etcetera. For japanese values in general, self-sacrifice, when it's the right thing to do, even if there's a big chance it won't change a thing, is noble.

Staying hidden in your corner is maybe more realistic. Smarter, from a survival point of view. But also cowardly. Some things should be more important than your own survival. Since when has this manga -- any shounen manga -- been about normal people not ever, ever going above and beyond? What's the point of a shounen manga where the hero and people admiring his values are not pushing themselves to be MORE and what's most important is your own little self?

Cynical+defeatist+not ever taking a risk=/=admirable.

Hinata started as a kid who was weak, shy, and always gave up, always submitted -- to her cousin, her father, everyone -- she had no spine. From Naruto's example she learned to stand her ground. She would have lost against Neji no matter what. But she gained a sense of self-respect from following Naruto's example and encouragements. She was prouder of herself when she was done with that fight than she had ever been in a life of being belittled and compared to more talented family. She hadn't given up and whined "it's too hard, so I won't bother."

That's exactly Naruto's own values, in case you missed that.

She knew that Naruto was caught -- that was it, end of the road, if no one did anything he would die. She decided she couldn't stand the idea and if she could give Naruto even just a few more minutes, if she didn't throw in the towel and whine "we've lost, never mind then, i'll just sit here and let things happen" then maybe there was a slim chance he'd be saved -- and she was ready to die to give him that slim chance.

What kind of plan could she have devised against PAIN in the two minutes between Naruto being pinned down and Pain grabbing him? If she had waited longer, suddenly she would have become a genius à la Shikamaru who...owait, didn't Shika himself not figure out a way to deal with Pain in a way that pitted their strengths against Pain's weaknesses? Could that be because... *gasp* Pain had no apparent weaknesses?

She wasn't WHINING for ATTENTION -- she EXPECTED TO END UP DEAD.

Her progression wasn't about her suddenly being able to go Super Saiyan 3 and shooting kamehamehas. It was always about her weak personality. And going from one who always gave up to one who was ready to die for something important, that's not a progression?

Should Kishimoto have at least given her a bigger fight scene so she didn't look so ridiculously overpowered? Maybe. And then again, she was fighting Pain, who singlehandedly crushed a whole village. Wouldn't people have screamed she'd gotten a power boost out of nowhere if suddenly she could stand her ground? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I get the feeling that you just don't like her personality type -- which is perfectly okay, I don't like the moe type either -- and that it means everything she does is wrong. But everything she did, I can find an example that Sakura or Ino did the same thing. "Useless" self-sacrifice for your loved one? Sakura did. Going in without a plan? Ino did, to save Sakura. What has Ino or Tenten done for the plot recently? Oh wait, Ino patted Shika on the back while he mourned Asuma and cried for Sasuke. Tenten, uh.

All characters are used as plot devices at some point, otherwise why do they exist if they never get to affect the storyline. Was it clumsy of Kishimoto? Yeah. But any way of bringing up the "btw yondy was waiting inside you the entire 450 chapters, we just never got a clue because, uh, no, I totally didn't pull it outta my ass to avoid Naruto rampaging, honest" would have looked clumsy.

She's not even close to my top 15 favorites, for god's sake, but there are ways to discuss characters you personally dislike without bashing them or being so unfair.

erm, manga comment, but not your awesome examination comment

[nemi-chan.livejournal.com]

which I really loved BTW. I never really felt any NaruSaku chemistry without Sasuke around. As side note, yeah, Sakura gets flack for still being 'fangirly' over Sasuke. Naruto gets flack over wanting to bring him back, and if the fans acknowledged, yes, Naruto really does love Sakura, then he'd get flack over that for not growing up. Truthfully both childhood crushes still existing despite literally no contact for years and years irritates me--I much prefer to see it as friendship/familial love.

But, is there another translation, because WTF is up with Sasuke getting the cred in killing Zabuza?! (also, is it just me, or does the previous Mizukage being a literal nightmare for Mist shine a whole new light Zabuza's attempt at rebellion?)

Re: erm, manga comment, but not your awesome examination comment

[askerian]

Yeah, me neither. Their deepest point of connection is their mutual love and longing for Sasuke. XD hell, he even fell in love with Sakura as "someone who wants (Sasuke's romantic) acknowledgement". I like the interpretation that what he loves best in her is how much she loves Sasuke. *_*

Whatever any of the characters do, they'll be bashed for it. I've also seen a lot of Sakura bashing for not throwing herself at Naruto because he's EARNED IT, and even for not letting Hinata die! wtf.

I tend to see Naruto's feelings as a lingering crush, because frankly apart from the flashbacks he never showed it was anything else, but Sakura's feelings for Sasuke have been depicted as powerful from the start and are a huge part of her bond to him, and it would be unbalanced if Sasuke got to keep his powerful "brotherhood" (hahah right) bond with Sasuke over the three years they were separated and yet Sakura lost hers. Of course it's not very realistic but hey, realism isn't that fun XD (or that admirable and touching either.)

I think Sasuke getting the cred is more of a "we heard this rumor...!" thing and since Sasuke is here and behaving evilly he gets the rep pushed at him. He was on the team that killed Zabuza! That's close enough for a rumor to start. XD After all the kages weren't there, they've got to have heard about it through the grapevine, and since it was several years ago and about some non-akatsuki missing nin (they can't be that rare) it makes sense the kages would be misremembering.

(and no, it really does. *_* because zabuza was rebelling against madara! or at least a mdara sockpuppet. ooohhh. Mmmh. Then again it was really fun when kisame, who went missing nin, suddenly sees his own kage as the head of the association he joined after defecting from his village. bwahahaha. I bet that was awkward for him.)

[bookem-dano.livejournal.com]

I'm going to have to agree, because it's the whole reason I like NaruSaku, what with it being such a Sasuke-driven relationship with guilt and mixed feelings and "I love you but not like how I love Sasuke" or "I want to love you like I love him because you're so good to me" *__* -- gah.

I'm so horrible in that I can appreciate NaruSaku this way because to my eyes it's a direct translation of NaruSasuSaku but I can't do the same with SasuSaku because I miss Naruto too much, though visually it's much prettier ;_;

But I really can't bother myself with NaruSaku vs. SasuSaku, because the winner for me will always be NaruSasu XD - Pairing wars are stupid so in the end I'll just find away to like them all *rereads Teamwork* u.u-b

♥

[askerian]

"I want to love you like I love him because you're so good to me"

ohhh. yes. *_*

haha, I can't read either narusaku or sasusaku fics because the first tend to minimize sasuke's importance way too much... (or to kill him orr, or make him irredeemable...) but the second is just blah to me, even tho Sasuke is actually in it. XD

Naruto and Sakura are socute with each other. But yessss narusasu tops everythinggggg ngh ♥

#u.u# ♥♥♥

[trishalynn.livejournal.com]

Weird question: Naruto went 8-tails???

This is what I get for having an ethical stance on scanlations.

[askerian]

Well, yes, he -- Um. I can summarize the chain of events if you want to know more. It was pretty epic. (six tails was sexier though. XD)

I forgive myself on Naruto scanlations, because I always end up buying every single volume the second it comes out, even if the french translation is really weird sometimes. XD;

[nothri.livejournal.com]

Truth to tell, I'm not feeling hopeful about the end of the Sasuke part of this story either. I'm getting a strong "run this ship into the ground, go down with all hands aboard" vibe from Sasuke on this one. I think somewhere he's looking to die- his vengeance was a joke and a mistake, the path he's devoted himself to is a lie, and he's currently having to deal with the fact that he is the very last Uchiha on earth, except maybe zombie Uchiha Tobi. He's been dealing with survivor guilt, he's basically acted like a giant asshole trying to sever all ties of friendship out of some misguided belief that those ties made him weak (which is just another way of saying he's scared to death to reach out to anyone because he's afraid something will take them away ala the Uchiha massacre), he's scared his revenge might have been worse than meaningless- that he may have severed his ties with the last person in his family....and that that person might not have been the monster he thought he was, he's going crazy trying to figure out if Madara was lying and if his whole conception of the world really was utterly upside down from reality....and maybe his new eye super powers are fucking him up too.

Remember way, way back in Naruto, when Sasuke is alarmed at how Zabuza and Kakashi are facing off with each other and seemingly contemplates shoving his kunai through his heart rather than wait for Zabuza to attack? Or Itachi's little spiel begging him to "keep on living, run away and savor your hatred....", implying that the OTHER option is....to not live? Sasuke has occasionally struck me as more than a little suicidal. Going to Orochimaru, knowing he could get eaten? Going with Madara, knowing it would align him with his past's worst enemies? At some point, I think Sasuke gave up on caring what happens to him. He's not looking to kill himself, but I don't think he values his life anymore. That last line between him and Gaara- if I go back to the light, what then? That kind of reinforces what I'm seeing here.

I'm not sure Sasuke is gonna make it out of this alive.

[askerian]

I totally agree with everything you said here except the conclusion you draw from it. XD Yeah, Sasuke is suicidal and looking to self-destruct as explosively as possible. But if he dies, Naruto will have failed, and he will be emotionally crushed whether Sasuke's death comes from Naruto's failure to save him or a noble sacrifice-type redemption. One of Naruto's biggest goals is to save Sasuke from the darkness, and that also includes the darkness in his personality, IE his self-destructive impulses and his inability to find hope. Naruto is hope personnified. He won't let Sasuke despair himself to death. It would really take away from the foreshadowed glorious!Hokage-to-be!Peace-bringer! end of the series if he and Sakura and Kakashi had failed so badly.

I admit a heroic sacrifice!redemption is a possibility, but I just can't see it as a major one. It would crush Naruto so much I doubt he'd be able to see the good side of it (Sasuke decided to come back to the Light! He accomplished something! His death wasn't in vain! That's... not what i'd call "Team seven to laugh together again" personally) for years to come, and the manga's timeline isn't going to stretch into the third arc he'd need to come to terms with it. Also, whoa tonal shift.



Also, if Naruto's Generation was into heroic deaths then Hinata would probably have died. ... okay, that reasoning isn't obvious, but. if Sasuke is fated to die then Naruto and Sakura would be pulled closer by their shared grief and his presence wouldn't stop Naruto from ever making a serious move or Sakura from moving on. Therefore there was no reason for Hinata to keep living (actual heroic death and fond, deeply moved remembrance was an acceptable conclusion to her character arc, provided the Changing The Hyuuga thing is is passed on to Neji or Hanabi in her memory), and even a reason for her to die, as foreshadowing that death was possible but mostly as a way to prepare Naruto to the thought of losing people his age who die *specifically for his sake*.

That reasoning assumes a lot of headcannony things, though. XD;; It's more of a possible theory than a real analysis/conclusion.


That last line between him and Gaara- if I go back to the light, what then?
Then they all find a way to laugh together again. It's the answer Naruto is looking for -- one he doesn't have yet, but one he's searching for. Sasuke is defeatist because of all the shit that's happened. It doesn't mean there's no solution -- same as the world peace thing Pain and Naruto bumped heads on. Just because there's no obvious solution right now doesn't mean one can't be found.

[hiza-chan.livejournal.com]

How much it proves they're on the same wavelength of soulmatey love when they both slip up and cry out Sasuke's name in the throes of passion? ohyesplz.

Wants to write this. Wants YOU to write this

[askerian]

nyooooo i have too many fics on my plate as it iiiiiis. DX mean. meeean.

[doodlelover.livejournal.com]

"How much it proves they're on the same wavelength of soulmatey love when they both slip up and cry out Sasuke's name in the throes of passion? ohyesplz."

D8 D8 D8 My life won't be complete without it.

I love this explanation. Only makes me long for the OT3 even more, because every other way it would be incomplete. XD;;

"Sakura: Naruto, stop torturing yourself, I'll save Sasuke on my own!
Kyuubi: *DENIED*"

LOLOLOL. Let's just quote this entire entry and go "OMG YEAH" and "LOLOLOL" and be done with it. Because it's just that awesome.

[sara-the-lazy.livejournal.com]

You went into a lot more depth than I have in thinking about this, and I think you're really right. Kishimoto's writing of Sakura has been a disappointment when it comes for her feelings toward Naruto. Thanks for writing this all out and giving me something to think about again (and be frustrated with Kishimoto for)

[askerian]

I think Naruto and Sakura's relationship has developed a lot, actually -- into a friendship. On the romance side they fail, and that's because Sakura is still in love with Sasuke and despite the moments that *could* have been interpreted otherwise it doesn't look like Kishimoto planned to change that. Now a lot of people assumed that her getting to see who Naruto truly was would mean her feelings would stop being platonic, and they're disappointed because that last step didn't happen, but I still think the development from annoyance and irritation into honest respect and care was really well done. Kishimoto just wasn't planning to ever make it romantic, the tease. I don't think that was bad writing from his part (apart from that failure of a confession, srsly kishi wtf) so much as fan expectations not being met -- when you read the manga closely there's lots of hints that she hasn't moved on from Sasuke anyway.

(and thank god for that because writing her taking that last step into romantic love is easy in fanfic, but if she gave up on and moved on from sasuke because of the way he's been behaving recently, making her fall back in love so they could have a threesome would be way harder XD)