askerian | teamworkverse blathering

Entry tags:

teamworkverse blathering

Re: Naruto and Genjutsu.

In Teamworkverse there are kitsune around, more than just the canon Kyuubi I mean. In Japanese legends, kitsune are great at illusions. Kyuubi, though, seems to exclusively use brute force. My headcanon was that he didn't find illusions satisfying enough and he didn't bother with that shit very much.

And then I noticed I tend to make Naruto very vulnerable to Genjutsu, which, yeah, manga canon anyway, but it kinda went *sparkles!* in my head.

If Kyuubi has an innate affinity for Genjutsu, no matter how developed, why doesn't Naruto?

Because... Naruto was born with a disability kind of like Lee's inability to use Ninjutsu, but in his case it's more of a cursed with awesome thing because it would have meant that, okay, he couldn't use genjutsu, but... it couldn't be used on him either. As in, he wouldn't even SEE the illusions.

But then they put Kyuubi inside him, and oops. Because it opened up his mind enough that he can be targeted, but the body still has zero affinity for it and thus he will always be horrible at protecting himself from it, even if/when he does merge with Kyuubi's own personality/abilities. Because his body is not a kitsune body and will never be, the end.

It just amused me to counter the "you were born with a ~~dis~~ability that would have been useful for ninjaing!" with the "... and then you got it busted and there's no way to ever get it back." Also it would be interesting to give that revelation, and then NOT have him somehow become immune again or kitsune-strong with illusions because either way would be hella godmode-y. Like he's not enough of a twink as it is. XD

Also it would amuse me to see Sakura's "hmm, interesting!" face when she learns about it, and then her being all "oops, well, okay, it sucks a little bit." when Naruto starts sulking.

But, I have very little idea of what I'd actually DO with this, apart from a cool random factoid, the very fact that this disability-that-isn't even exists is already a bit too "special" to give it to the main character, and also I probably contradict canon or my own fic with it, so I don't think I'm gonna use it. It's just kind of fun to think about. ^_^

edit: bwee theories. I'm enjoying the hell out of the discussion so far. XD ♥

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Only thing I'd point out with regards to that is I do believe henge is considered a form of genjutsu, and Naruto does use that. Not to say your idea isn't awesome, but at least he's got enough affinity to use it in very basic forms.

... Alas! My theory. XD

Could always bullshit that it's the only kind he ever will learn, though. But... heh XD I'm not gonna tack it onto teamwork anyway.

Blah help me I hate fight scenes someone put me out of my miseryyyyyy...

Of course, henge is like... academy-level, so Naruto could just as well be crap at anything more involved XD

I thought Naruto was crap at henge? Cuz when Iruka wanted him to make a henge duplicate of himself, he sucked. But then later on they discovered that he could make LOTS of bunshin, and the reason he sucked at henge and other basic skills is because it used too LITTE chakra, and Naruto doesn't (or didn't, at any rate) exactly have very much finesse or control, and actually found it easier to make things which need a lot of chakra.

... The single exception I can think of to this is the sexy-no-justu. But then you could argue that that's actually either a very high level henge or a bunshin placed on/over himself because it's actually solid and you can touch it.

But he taught it to Konohamaru easily enough...

Argh this is confusing O_o

Sexy no jutsu is definitely a henge, not a bunshin; before Naruto makes up the name for it, he just says henge when doing it. (Naruto does suck at bunshin before he steals the scroll, but bunshin and henge are two different things.)

IIRC Henge's a ninjutsu. Even though it's an illusion.

My theory is that that's because it involves pushing out shaped chakra into the world to form the images, while Genjutsu involves reaching chakra into someone else to 'form' their perceptions.

Medical jutsu are ninjutsu because of either 1, sloppy terminology in-character due to their physical rather than mental effects, or 2, because they work on the physical structure of the body's cells rather than through the target's chakra system.

Or, y'know, I could be full of it. Pick your favorite. ^_^

I'd go with sloppy terminology in general -- Kabuto's sleep jutsu is a genjutsu by canonical terminology, even though it has more in common with medical ninjutsu rather than illusion-making. (Whereas Gaara's self-sleep jutsu is a ninjutsu, IIRC...)

You can give it to one of the kids if it's genetic

Alas none of the kids I have planned would work with it. (... could make up a fourth, though. XD But that means i'd need another mary-sue pattern to subvert that would fit with that genjutsu immunity/disability concept.)

Psh, there's so many, it couldn't be that hard :D
xP But kudos to you

Yay, thank you for this! I needed a little rambley ramble pick-me-up right now ^_^ This is kinda fun to think about: some AU non-Kyuubi Naruto- so oblivious that even genjutsu don't work on him!

Maybe it'll have to turn into the bloodline of some other non-main character, perhaps one of the mandatory-female-characters on a three man team that never really gets any screen time at all, even though her disability/skills are really-totally awesome. I can see a comic short along something of that vein- ignored female ninjas unite!

Ahaha, yes, it would make for an interesting original character! I might use it. or i might not, who knows. Either way if ever you get bunnied by it and want to write fic or rp the concept, feel free. It's just neat enough to make for interesting OCs and not developed enough at this point in time to make it copying, just inspiration. ^^

I just thought I should tell you that is the most amazing icon in the history of ever, and where did you find it? XD

The picture is from a news arricle about some asshole Sasuke cosplayer who, I think, was stealing in the dealer room at a convention? Cops caught him. It was pretty hilarious, especially since at the time the manga (or anime?) was in a Retrieve Sasuke arc. The icon has been floating around since then, but I personally don't know who made it. Saw it on a lot of people, though.

BWAHAHA, that is the most amazing thing I have ever heard....

Other possibilities: Genjutsu is said to be an as yet unelaborated form of chakra that I've seen translated as "dark" chakra or "yin" chakra. Kyuubi, supposedly, had the "dark" part of his chakra sealed (if I understand it correctly) and Naruto was given the "light" portion. So all the badass genjutsu Kyuubi could use is closed to Naruto, and instead his body is constantly being flooded with healy "not genjutsu" chakra. Him doing genjutsu with all that light chakra flowing through him is like a person trying to breath in air in a room filled entirely with carbon dioxide.

Or one could argue that Naruto doesn't have the finite chakra control needed to use genjutsu, so he doesn't use it for the same reason he doesn't use medical jutsu.

Not that your explanation isn't kickass. I've also been thinking of this sorta stuff.

... I like that dark/light theory very much. *_* ♥

Of course, the fine control is also pretty likely. XD maybe it's both and that's why he can't work with genjutsu even when he's only using his own native chakra...

Thanks. Unfortunately, that doesn't explain why he still gets hurt by Genjutsu. One would think being pumped full of "anti-chakra" would screw up other people's tricks on his senses too. Then again....I have the exact same question about canon. I mean, the two ways to fight genjutsu is to do that negation thing Naruto tried on Itachi near the start of Shippuden, or get pumped full of chakra from another party (Sakura, in the case of that illusion). But isn't Naruto CONSTANTLY being pumped full of someone else's chakra? Even when its passive and Naruto isn't completely "I'M INSANE WITH ANGER!" and glowing red and doing his werefox thing....he's still being pumped full of energy to heal his wounds and pumped his human chakra meter back up to full every 24 hours (which helped him recover during his rasengan training and jump right back into it after he slept). So...shouldn't that screw over any would be genjutsu targetting him already? Ehh...I give up. Its not like that's the only "wha?" moment Naruto's had over its run (Itachi, slaughterer of men, women, children younger than Sasuke, his own parents = Big damn hero acting under the approval of the kindly old 3rd Hokage? WTF, mate?).

The simplest way to work your idea into the story might be to have Sakura "come across" it while she's examining Naruto post "Kyuubi smash, bitches!". But that's hardly the only way.

Best answer to that that I can come up with is that Naruto is, sadly, mentally vulnerable to genjutsu due to his personality. He's a very direct confrontational kind of person, an people like that tend not to think too much on trying to trick people into thinking something else, nor do they think much on being tricked. If I recall what I've read correctly, using genjutsu takes a certain kind of mindset, as well as fine chakra control and a particular type of chakra, to be really good. I can see Ino being good with genjutsu, because her family jutsu, the Shintenshin,is a mind control jutsu, where as I can't see Neji being as good. Neji, perfectionist that he is, would improve all his abilities as much as he could. However, in some ways Neji is just as confrontational as Naruto, so while he might have the chakra control for it, he doesn't have the mindset to bother with complex, involved illusions that require a long set-up. Look at the types of skills he uses in battle compared with someone like Shikamaru, who probably would be excellent at genjutsu. Shikamaru thinks everything through and covers all possible alternative outcomes, Neji makes one plan and sticks to it. To borrow something said in another fanfic, genuises tend to think very linearly, and Neji is a good example of that.

Regardless of Kyuubi's presence in Naruto's body, he cannot influence Naruto's mind directly, which leaves Naruto more vulnerable to genjutsu being used on him, even if Kyuubi's chakra is geared toward being good with genjustu. After all, Kyuubi's physical body was a construct of dust and dirt and things ... or so I've heard.

Also, from what I've seen, at least in the Naruto world, being good at one type of jutsu or another seems to run in families. So, although we don't really know too much about Naruto's family, other than who his parents were, we can assume from other things mentioned that daddy Yondaime Namikaze Minato appeared to be another of the direct confrontation type. he was never shown using anything but ninjutsu and taijutsu. I'm ont saying that he never used ganjustsu, but, like Naruto, he may not have been that good at it. As for his mother Kushina, she's only been mentioned twice that I recall, and it was never anything that related to her ninja skills. Taking that line of thinking further, along with the idea that a disability like that can be passed on to another generation, we can surmise that if both Naruto's parents were bad at genjutsu, then following Mandella's squares, at least one out of every four offspring would be incapable of genjutsu, while one would have about the same amount of ability as the parents and the last two half the ability. If I have the concept right. I haven't looked at a biology book in a long time. Unlucky Naruto!

And I seem to be rambling. I'll quit here and let someone else try to make sense of all that.

One other thing. Genjutsu specifically targets the mind. Just having Kyuubi in him would already be screwing with Naruto's preceptions just a bit. As for why Kyuubi wouldn't share his immunity to genjutsu with naruto, well, they are two separate minds. If the genjutsu doesn't target Kyuubi it shouldn't work on him, right? Thus Kyuubi wouldn't be able to pull Naruto out of a genjutsu, since he can't directly influence Naruto's mind.

That's the thing. We know for a fact Kyuubi doesn't have a choice. The seal constantly pulls his chakra into Naruto, as evidenced by how it heals his wounds and such. My understanding is that the way to disrupt a genjutsu is for your ally to pump chakra into your chakra network- screwing up the flow the of the illusion. The way its described, you'd think would be immune to genjutsu 24/7 since he constantly has at least a low level of someone else's chakra pumping through his veins.

As I understand matters, the reason "pumping someone else's chakra in" works to disrupt the illusion is that the genjutsu's pattern is being imposed on what you already have, and the external chakra coming in hasn't had that pattern imposed on it and so disrupts the flow. Or something like that.

If that's the case, then the very fact that Kyuubi's chakra is constantly flowing in that way would mean that the genjutsu pattern would be imposed on it as well as on Naruto's own, and so it would not suffice to create the necessary disruption.

ehh, I don't think I made much sense there. What I meant was that to counter a genjutstu you need either a strong will, extreme pain (not recommended), or a sudden inflow of chakra from another person. Kyyubi wouldn't count because he's part of naruto and his chakra is a constant overflow into naruto's chakra coils.

I'm talking about his mind ... not his chakra. There is a distinct difference. I can see any genjutstu affecting Naruto inspite of the constant infow of chakra because it is a constant flow, something his body is used to. We're talking about a short disruption in chakra flow, not something permanent like the Kyuubi's constant chakra boost.

Hmm, one could also argue it's Kyu-kun's fault, and not just the shitty chakra control thing, since obviously it's fine post rasengan and stuff. You got my rusty brain gears turning so...

Okay, kitsune illusions are reality to them, it's one of the reasons why they are super good at them. Because of Kyubi in his gut Naruto also has this affinity towards illusions--his are real, to him and other people. Hence why his Sexy no Jutsu knocks everyone senseless.

However, because of this, every genjutsu is tsukiyomi to him, even the ones he himself casts. However, Naruto is fundementally honest so he can't work himself up into believing most of the illusions he tries to cast, so they don't work; because the reality of them to himself is a fundemental part of kitsune illusions.

Which is why he can turn into Girl!Naruto but not Hokage!Sarutobi. (Hokage!Naruto is obviously doable though!)

I like to think Naruto's so good at Sexy no Jutsu because, IIRC, in stories kitsune often disguise themselves as women. And I just like the idea that Naruto's good at transforming himself--or at least his physical self--but crap at transforming other people's perceptions. It just doesn't ping with his personality. I can't see him manipulating people like that. And, really, that's what genjutsu's all about, as far as I can see--manipulating people's minds to your advantage. The better you are at manipulation, the better you are at genjutsu. (*coughItachicough*)

Naruto just likes using his fist. *g*

It would be interesting to see pop up in fic--maybe not yours, it might come off as kind of an awkward fun fact. But! I can see it coming out in a fic that deals with the side-effects of Naruto having an ancient nine-tailed demon shoved inside him. (Which is weird, because I generally avoid such fics. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love the concept, but they're always so... angsty... and dark... and I'd like to see more light-hearted, poking-fun-at-Naruto kind of stuff, for once. *pout*)

Hmmm, funny, I can't get enough of the angsty/dark/different Fics, and have run into way too many 'naruto is an idiot/pick on/make fun of him' fics.

Naruto is my favorite character--that's why I don't like angsty/dark fics that involve the Kyuubi, because they're almost never good for Naruto. (I do like making fun of him too, though! I mean, as long as it isn't done in a hey-let's-bash-Naruto way.) Anyway, Naruto (the animanga) is such a hope-filled, light series* itself that I can't reconcile that with the heavy, dark tone a lot of angstier fics take on. It doesn't click with me and often comes off as heavy-handed and false to me, lol.

*

By the way, your icon is BEAUTIFUL.

i like midnigh_unicorn suggestion that it's genetic, then you could subvert the mary sue pattern of mysterious!Long lost sibling/twin/cousin/aunt/uncle/relative that randomly turns up and they instantly act like family.... those ones for some reason annoy the hell out of me.
....*gets smacked by the Mary Sues/OCs that live in her brain* ....they won't leave me alone dammit! DDX >.<;;;

Didn't Naruto break free of one of Itachi's illusions? Did I hallucinate that?

Yeah. He tried to, and apparently got far enough to impress Itachi by his growth in skill, but he needed Sakura's help to get out.

Whenever I think of Naruto and chakra control, I keep thinking of Jeannelle from the dark jewels trilogy, she had so much power that at first she could only do the big spells that use a ton of energy because her control was practically non-existent.

But over time, as she used her power more and more, she was able to use spells that needed less power until she could finally master what was considered the 'basics'.

She literally had to be taught in reverse because her control had to be built up to the point that she could keep herself from using more power than the spell needed.

The same could be said of Naruto, that even before we see him tapping Kyuubi's chakra on the bridge he might have been using it subconsciously-or at least automatically where his body's healing ability is concerned-since he started molding chakra. If you go back, he says right during the first major arc that all he needs is a good night's sleep and he's back up to 100%.

And if you think about it, that's the difference between the henge and the bushin, the first is a starter that doesn’t need a lot of power but plenty of control, the bushin needs a ton of power and concentration. That's why Naruto was able to do the later amazingly well, but was pathetically lame in the former.

At least that's what my muses keep throwing around.

I just go with "Naruto's an idiot".

Genjutsu involves falling prey to deception. Japanese anime is pretty universal in their ideas, and most shows it's the same thing, falling prey to an illusion means you bought into it and lost control of your own senses, your disbelief isn't strong enough. That's why all the haughty villains and super elites are like "Pah! Such pathetic illusions won't work on me!" They're not immune to illusions... they just aren't that gullible.

Naruto is the damn dictionary definition of gullible.

A lot of the characters in the series KNOW when they've been affected by genjutsu even if they get caught in it. Characters like Sakura or Sasuke or Hinata even have the know-how to counter it. But Naruto is so overwhelmingly blockheaded and trusting of everyone (ESPECIALLY people who have tried to kill him... see current episodes for fact) that it really isn't hard to fool him with genjutsu.

Hell, I'm pretty sure ninjas don't even need genjutsu to trick Naruto.

But seriously, the theory works best. Every time someone summons a giant hallucinatory snake, the rest of the characters are like "Damn, it's an illusion!". Naruto says... "HOLY SHIT ITS A SNAKE OMG RUN!".

What if he finds out, and then the fact that he is vulnerable means that something Terrible happens?

So basically Naruto was an illusionist's worst nightmare, but Minato fixed him. *Amused*

I always got the impression in Folklore that Kitsune illusions were a bit different than people Illusions, and a weee bit more dangerously whimsical of a whammy than what the Uchiha tend to throw around. (I'm telling you, Fox Clan, freaking fox clan. *Is new pet theory, since it followed her home and won't go away*) Like someday Naruto may be walking around wanting something bad enough and it just sorta starts happening in all levels of perception around him. He seems better with the 'Let's make it solid' which seems what Kitsune illusions are made up of than the 'Let's turn your mind against you' which seems to be what genjutsu is.

I have not read any of the comments, just got back from an all weekend work thing and am of the tired...but am looking forward to ready all the nummy theories.

Naruto does the turning-into-a-beautiful-woman thing pretty well, though. I've always wondered what that was. Especially when he was having a hard time with transformation in the academy. And yet, if he has trouble with illusions, it can't quite be an illusion either. It's sort of its own separate thing.

But in answer to your question about why doesn't Naruto have the genjutsu ability ... I'd use the excuse that Kyuubi never used illusions in his life. And I've often heard that if you don't exercise talent, you lose it. So Kyuubi's ability could've been ... muted? Or something. And Naruto can't access it. If Kyuubi ever decided to pick it up again, he'd have to work at it. (This sucks, I know, I'm just throwing ideas out there.)

Yo, stumbled across this and decided to drop in my two cents.

A fanfic by Highspeed0516 (http://highspeed0516.deviantart.com) called Sakura Season (http://highspeed0516.deviantart.com/art/Sakura-Season-84347152) has some really kickass theories on executing genjutsu that'd actually fit into canon. It's kinda hard to explain, though, so I'd suggest just reading it. It'd explain why Naruto'd be shit at them, what with his inhuman chakra reserves and less-than-stellar chakra control- it'd be trying to write on lined paper with a pencil the size of one of those gigantic crayon-shaped coin banks, or trying to water flowers with a fire hose.

As for henge, I've read fanfic theories(though I don't remember where X_x) that Naruto is particularly adept at it because he's NOT executing a proper Academy henge. Assuming standard henge is a simple E-rank genjutsu, the theory goes that he's not cloaking himself in an illusion, but utilizing another Kyuubi gift and actually shapeshifting. If I'm remembering correctly, in Japanese lore kitsune are master tricksters and can, for example, disguise themselves as human and chill with us for shits and giggles- get drunk, seduce hotties, fleece the gullible, whatever.

As far as ninja skills go, the idea that any run-of-the-mill genin can actually BECOME, say, a kunai, is kinda hard to swallow. Remember in the Wave arc when Naruto turns himself into a Fuuma shuriken to double-blind Zabuza and free Kakashi? Sasuke looked kinda hesitant until he grabbed shuriken-naruto and figured out Naruto's trick. I would imagine that even if he turned himself into a giant spinning blade of death he might give off body heat or a trace chakra signature... or it could be that Sasuke was understanding the hide-another-in-its-shadow concept (cuz i doubt he'd carry two of those things around- maybe Sasuke thought Naruto was giving him his? Could be standard issue or something). Of course, his disbelief could've had ta do with Naruto's dead-last stigma, or he was just being a dick as usual.

It'd also be somewhat supported by the fight against Gaara-turned-Shukaku with Naruto+Gamabunta tag-teaming to transform into a nine-tailed fox, complete with working teeth and claws. A genjutsu couldn't do that, and it would explain why Gamabunta would need to use Naruto as a chakra conduit to transform. Of course, that could also be an inability to do handsigns and/or human jutsu.

Another idea is that Naruto's actually doing, I dunno, a Kage Henge or something- just like Kage Bushin is basically a ninjutsu-based tangible Superclone, he could be performing a ninjutsu-based tangible Superhenge that draws on some of the nuts and bolts of Kage Bushin. It could also possibly explain why Kage Shuriken, which Sandaime uses it against Orochimaru's Edo Tensei summoning to pin the Fourth's casket closed, isn't more widely used. You'd think someone like, say, Tenten would worship that jutsu. It'd also explain why Naruto-clones would have working kunai... but it wouldn't explain how Naruto could pull Sexy no Jutsu before the mess with Mizuki.

Last one I've heard of to explain the henge/genjutsu discrepancy is Naruto, in his ADD-esque unconventional brilliance and "why can't I?" attitude, connected 'A' to ramen to chopsticks to trees to 154 to kunai to blood-red to 'Z' and managed to create his own version of henge no jutsu. Possibly on accident. O_o. Well, I guess he DOES have the devil's luck.

Anyway, that's all I got. Wow I spent way more time on this post than I planned... Meh. I was bored anyways.

-Drea

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

teamworkverse blathering

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

funny..

Re: funny..

Re: funny..

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject