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Pseudo-analysis -- pattern of frog-snake-slug teams
Just trying to make the themes make sense for myself... Funny how Team Seven gathers all those facets from the other teams. Makes sense though with the way Kishimoto constructs his characters. Everyone must be a foil for Naruto in some way. Warning, it doesn't really get anywhere.
(Mm, random Uppercase emphasis. Don't mind it, I like to pretend I'm all deep and shit.)
Jiraiya - Orochimaru - Tsunade
Snake: Had family; they died in a war.(?)
Slug: Granddaughter of Hokage, had family duty toward Village. Had brother; he died. Had lover.
Snake: To learn all the jutsu in the world and stay alive until he can meet his dead loved ones (parents) again. (Believed they would reincarnate.) (selfish but not negative/dark)
Slug: To fulfill family & lover legacy. To make sure there are more medics around; to protect the village.
Snake: Obtaining means to learn all the jutsu and more influence to keep self alive became more important than waiting for parents/developing bonds. Forgot why; lost Motive. Did not allow Frog and Slug to become his new Loved Ones. => could not be redeemed; fell too far + at no point was he sorry.
Slug: Could not save Lover and Brother; abandoned Village and Team. Ran away. => got a chance to try again, by taking the title of Hokage and attempting to save Brother surrogate (Naruto).
Yahiko - Nagato - Konan
Snake: Lost family to war. (by Konoha ninjas.) Bloodline limit heir. When scared/angry becomes v. hateful and kills; is scared of that side of himself and tries to hide it.
Slug: Lost family to war. Gentle and friendly.
Snake: To protect Frog & Slug even at the cost of self-sacrifice. Has Power; needs control. Has hate/darkness, scared of it. (could either learn to use it or erase it.)
Slug: To support her teammates. (? Who knows. She has tits, it's not like it matters.)
Snake: Didn't save Frog. Lost/perverted the "protect" and "wish for lasting peace" motives inherited from Frog; (now is assuming the only possible peace is between people who are too terrorized to use their freedom of choice.) Sacrifices others and calls it necessary. Let go of his humanity. => Protector gone wrong.
Slug: Didn't oppose Snake's plan. Might even agree. Enabled him instead of bringing him back to reason, either by choice or weakness of character.
Obito - Kakashi - Rin
(Interesting how this is the only team to break the pattern of black hair/colorless hair for Slug and snake; but then again Kakashi doesn't have a gold/fire hair color but a cold gray/silver one, so the reversal effect is muted.)
Snake: Father was (he assumes) a traitor; Snake distancies self from Father & comrades.
Slug: (???)
Snake: To prove he can become strong alone and doesn't need Frog&Snake. (has some Power but flawed Motive and no Loved Ones)
Slug: (???)
Snake: Did everything right, but too late. Realized he was wrong about father, and about not needing Frog&Slug, also too late. => Now has Power & pure Motive (thanks to Teammate and correct understanding of Father's intent); has lost Loved Ones he was to use them for.
Slug:was fucking useless apart from a princess to save damn it For herself, who knows. Couldn't heal Frog, but no one could have, so that isn't really her fault? But she failed Snake; she's another person who died on him.
Naruto - Sasuke - Sakura
Snake: Bloodline clan to live up to. Lost family. Betrayed by beloved brother. (Has Innate Power, but not enough. Has Motive (and then some.) Has Loved Ones.)
Slug: Normal civilian life => generally shallow.
Snake: To gain power in order to have revenge/justice for family (negative/dark but not selfish). To balance the scales -- in a negative way (an eye for an eye.) Secondary motivation : to protect himself and/or Frog & Slug, by pushing them aside.
Slug: To gain power in order to protect Slug & Snake and reunite the three of them.
Snake: Will not fall too far into revenge and lose all sense of scale and appropriateness and acceptable targets (Will learn that an eye for an eye => the whole world goes blind.)
Has enough Power; will regain Purity of Motive. Will remember he has Loved Ones to use it for => Will become Protector instead of Avenger again.
Slug: Will protect/heal brother & lover figures. Will not run away. Will not enable them in bad decisions or perversion of their principles. Will not die on them.
It's interesting how all Snakes have this major potential for Good or Evil, and they all started out potentially good, yet something is missing. Ideally all characters should have a Motive (to protect a specific someone; to change the world for the better; to bring true justice), Loved Ones so they have a reason to fight, and the Power to see their Motive through. Snakes are the ones who get the most unbalanced over it when they're missing an element or two, though.
Orochimaru had Loved Ones (his parents), lost them, gained a Motive (to gain power (knowledge and influence) in order to see them again), but he failed when he didn't let his teammates become Loved Ones (or, in fact, didn't allow anyone to reach his feelings in any way, killing all compassion) and therefore he perverted his motive -- he forgot about his parents and his motive became Power in itself, for itself. Totally irredeemable and didn't even want to be nor did he seem to care that he was "wrong". He just was; that was all he cared about.
Kakashi lost and distrusted his first Loved One (his father) therefore his Motives (to obey the rules and not trust anyone) were misguided and his Power (chidori, leader ability) was insufficient. Not bad exactly, but not good enough. By gaining new Loved Ones his Motives became better but having doubted his father for so long and having been in the wrong, he didn't fix things in time. He gained that Power at the cost of a Loved One. He did get to keep both Power and Motive though, which is more than the older two.
Nagato, now... He had all three. Rinnegan (power), Loved Ones (teammates) and the purest and best of Motives -- to protect his loved ones. And he failed in a spectacular way. Lost his Loved One and then BAM, Motive fucked up, Power used for evil. I think he just didn't have the moral fortitude to deal with the pressure right. >_> (Kakashi understood that going against your dead loved ones' true belief and expectations was wrong, you ass, why didn't you.)
For Sasuke... Man. he had all three in slightly smaller doses (Loved Ones -- family; Motive -- to become awesome like his brother ♥ and to be useful and respected and valued by his Loved Ones -- and Power; the potential of the Sharingan), and then all three became damaged or had to be replaced because they weren't enough anymore.
I think the goal of the game is to get him to revert completely to his first set. Lost the drive to become like Itachi; regained the drive to become like Itachi. Learned to detach from Loved Ones - team Seven and team hawk, kept at arm's length -- has to learn to let them in again. As for the third ... Sharingan (familial ability) => bad motives => curse seal (artificial & demonic) => brother's sacrifice => Mangekyou (familial ability). So we get one bad intentions powerup and one good intentions powerup (that he now has to live up to). Sasuke never looked for power just for power's sake -- he just has to realize that now he has more than enough... by realizing that Protecting Your Loved Ones is the best catalyst EVER (at least in shounen manga.) You just can't go wrong with that.
Crap, I forgot where I was going. Should have taken more notes.
And I end this rambly ramble with this last rambly sentence of I don't have a clue what i'm babbling about really I just came back home from shopping all afternoon and i think I'll have to amputate my feet at the ankle to stop them hurting. You ask me to think logically and try making sense when my monies are all gone. How can you.
(Mm, random Uppercase emphasis. Don't mind it, I like to pretend I'm all deep and shit.)
Their past:Frog: ? Goofy perverted kid.
Snake: Had family; they died in a war.(?)
Slug: Granddaughter of Hokage, had family duty toward Village. Had brother; he died. Had lover.
Their motivation:Frog: Wanted to be awesome. (I guess. No idea.) Wants peace; fails to figure out how.
Snake: To learn all the jutsu in the world and stay alive until he can meet his dead loved ones (parents) again. (Believed they would reincarnate.) (selfish but not negative/dark)
Slug: To fulfill family & lover legacy. To make sure there are more medics around; to protect the village.
How they failed:Frog: Could not stop Snake. Lost confidence in ability to bring peace & be awesome (read: Hokage.) => Got two chances to try again, by making his student the confident savior he himself could have been. First attempt, failed unknowingly when he abandoned his students, thinking them grown enough to become independent. Redemption via death. Second attempt : Naruto, still in progress.
Snake: Obtaining means to learn all the jutsu and more influence to keep self alive became more important than waiting for parents/developing bonds. Forgot why; lost Motive. Did not allow Frog and Slug to become his new Loved Ones. => could not be redeemed; fell too far + at no point was he sorry.
Slug: Could not save Lover and Brother; abandoned Village and Team. Ran away. => got a chance to try again, by taking the title of Hokage and attempting to save Brother surrogate (Naruto).
Their past:Frog: Lost family to war. Keeps enthusiasm and cooperation (is the one who gathers Snake and Slug to him & directs search for food & shelter.) => provider.
Snake: Lost family to war. (by Konoha ninjas.) Bloodline limit heir. When scared/angry becomes v. hateful and kills; is scared of that side of himself and tries to hide it.
Slug: Lost family to war. Gentle and friendly.
Their motivation:Frog: Provider of emotional support & motivation. Wishes for revenge for Family, but knows Peace isn't possible if you listen to your anger. Wishes to become strong to protect Snake & Slug. Wishes for peaceful future more than he wishes for revenge, though he has both impulses; in the end takes decision to lean on the Protect side of the balance in order to bring end to endless war & revenge pendulum swing.
Snake: To protect Frog & Slug even at the cost of self-sacrifice. Has Power; needs control. Has hate/darkness, scared of it. (could either learn to use it or erase it.)
Slug: To support her teammates. (? Who knows. She has tits, it's not like it matters.)
How they failed:Frog: ??? Died. (Major failure. He was their hope & humanity.)
Snake: Didn't save Frog. Lost/perverted the "protect" and "wish for lasting peace" motives inherited from Frog; (now is assuming the only possible peace is between people who are too terrorized to use their freedom of choice.) Sacrifices others and calls it necessary. Let go of his humanity. => Protector gone wrong.
Slug: Didn't oppose Snake's plan. Might even agree. Enabled him instead of bringing him back to reason, either by choice or weakness of character.
(Interesting how this is the only team to break the pattern of black hair/colorless hair for Slug and snake; but then again Kakashi doesn't have a gold/fire hair color but a cold gray/silver one, so the reversal effect is muted.)
Their past:Frog: Cannot develop family bloodline. Dead-last weakling, both physically and in strength of resolve.
Snake: Father was (he assumes) a traitor; Snake distancies self from Father & comrades.
Slug: (???)
Their motivation:Frog: To prove to family & team he is not a failure. To break the system that says mission success > teammates.
Snake: To prove he can become strong alone and doesn't need Frog&Snake. (has some Power but flawed Motive and no Loved Ones)
Slug: (???)
How they failed:Frog: Didn't really fail. Saved his teammate Snake, changed Snake's mindset. Price was too high though; he got his improvement started too late to save himself.
Snake: Did everything right, but too late. Realized he was wrong about father, and about not needing Frog&Slug, also too late. => Now has Power & pure Motive (thanks to Teammate and correct understanding of Father's intent); has lost Loved Ones he was to use them for.
Slug:
Their past:Frog: Orphan from birth. Ostracized by whole village. Dead-last.
Snake: Bloodline clan to live up to. Lost family. Betrayed by beloved brother. (Has Innate Power, but not enough. Has Motive (and then some.) Has Loved Ones.)
Slug: Normal civilian life => generally shallow.
Their motivation:Frog: To gain respect. To gain&keep loved ones, esp. Snake&Slug. To become Awesome (read: Hokage). To reform twisted system.
Snake: To gain power in order to have revenge/justice for family (negative/dark but not selfish). To balance the scales -- in a negative way (an eye for an eye.) Secondary motivation : to protect himself and/or Frog & Slug, by pushing them aside.
Slug: To gain power in order to protect Slug & Snake and reunite the three of them.
How they will not fail:Frog: Has Peers' respect. Will get Brother Figure/Snake back. Will become Awesome (read: Hokage). Will bring Lasting Peace (probably not perfect peace but, better than current climate.) & end Mission > Teammates mindset (if only by example. XD) Will not die because of too little too late; he has put in enough effort not to.
Snake: Will not fall too far into revenge and lose all sense of scale and appropriateness and acceptable targets (Will learn that an eye for an eye => the whole world goes blind.)
Has enough Power; will regain Purity of Motive. Will remember he has Loved Ones to use it for => Will become Protector instead of Avenger again.
Slug: Will protect/heal brother & lover figures. Will not run away. Will not enable them in bad decisions or perversion of their principles. Will not die on them.
It's interesting how all Snakes have this major potential for Good or Evil, and they all started out potentially good, yet something is missing. Ideally all characters should have a Motive (to protect a specific someone; to change the world for the better; to bring true justice), Loved Ones so they have a reason to fight, and the Power to see their Motive through. Snakes are the ones who get the most unbalanced over it when they're missing an element or two, though.
Orochimaru had Loved Ones (his parents), lost them, gained a Motive (to gain power (knowledge and influence) in order to see them again), but he failed when he didn't let his teammates become Loved Ones (or, in fact, didn't allow anyone to reach his feelings in any way, killing all compassion) and therefore he perverted his motive -- he forgot about his parents and his motive became Power in itself, for itself. Totally irredeemable and didn't even want to be nor did he seem to care that he was "wrong". He just was; that was all he cared about.
Kakashi lost and distrusted his first Loved One (his father) therefore his Motives (to obey the rules and not trust anyone) were misguided and his Power (chidori, leader ability) was insufficient. Not bad exactly, but not good enough. By gaining new Loved Ones his Motives became better but having doubted his father for so long and having been in the wrong, he didn't fix things in time. He gained that Power at the cost of a Loved One. He did get to keep both Power and Motive though, which is more than the older two.
Nagato, now... He had all three. Rinnegan (power), Loved Ones (teammates) and the purest and best of Motives -- to protect his loved ones. And he failed in a spectacular way. Lost his Loved One and then BAM, Motive fucked up, Power used for evil. I think he just didn't have the moral fortitude to deal with the pressure right. >_> (Kakashi understood that going against your dead loved ones' true belief and expectations was wrong, you ass, why didn't you.)
For Sasuke... Man. he had all three in slightly smaller doses (Loved Ones -- family; Motive -- to become awesome like his brother ♥ and to be useful and respected and valued by his Loved Ones -- and Power; the potential of the Sharingan), and then all three became damaged or had to be replaced because they weren't enough anymore.
I think the goal of the game is to get him to revert completely to his first set. Lost the drive to become like Itachi; regained the drive to become like Itachi. Learned to detach from Loved Ones - team Seven and team hawk, kept at arm's length -- has to learn to let them in again. As for the third ... Sharingan (familial ability) => bad motives => curse seal (artificial & demonic) => brother's sacrifice => Mangekyou (familial ability). So we get one bad intentions powerup and one good intentions powerup (that he now has to live up to). Sasuke never looked for power just for power's sake -- he just has to realize that now he has more than enough... by realizing that Protecting Your Loved Ones is the best catalyst EVER (at least in shounen manga.) You just can't go wrong with that.
Crap, I forgot where I was going. Should have taken more notes.
And I end this rambly ramble with this last rambly sentence of I don't have a clue what i'm babbling about really I just came back home from shopping all afternoon and i think I'll have to amputate my feet at the ankle to stop them hurting. You ask me to think logically and try making sense when my monies are all gone. How can you.
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♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥
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*kneadknead* *zzz*
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But Curiously, would you say Jiraiya failed with Minato? Since Minato ended up getting himself killed, but seem to remain true to the goals he'd set for himself (Protecting the Village, becoming Hokage, Protecting his loved ones? All of the things the Frog's sought?) I wish we knew more about Minato's team. (Dead? Defected? Anbu? Now Civilians? Kushina and Sasuke's Mommy? The true evil waiting in the wings? Only time will tell us.)
I think that Kakashi, Obito and Rin getting it Almost Right, set it up for Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura getting it right. Kakashi's team was always based on too little, too late. (Where the hell Rin went, we don't know, she might be with Minato's Team Mates and Kushina, waiting in the wings for their moment to impact the plot.) Kakashi both failed and didn't to connect with his team, he connected with Obito enough for Obito to feel obligated to protect him, and with Rin so little that he was willing to not go and save her over the mission. (This is why Kakashi can't die yet, he and Sasuke need to have a Talk.)
I love this sort of thing, because I love over analyzing stories.
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I think that Kakashi, Obito and Rin getting it Almost Right, set it up for Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura getting it right.
*^O^* THAT is the link I didn't manage to make! thank you yesyesyes.
And, Rin is dead. Kakashi said all his precious people were dead, so unless he doesn't include her in that... (and if he didn't include her in that she'd have to do something pretty horrible. D: Betraying everything Obito stood for? even then i'm not sure. XD) As for Kushina I don't see what except death would keep her away from her son, seriously I've seen people trying to explain it but it never satisfies me. It just doesn't fit.
(and kakashi is not dead! i refuse it. >((( )
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well, yeah, we assume she's either dead or did a Very Bad Thing. Either way, I'd like to know. We know exactly what happened to Obito and how, but we know nothing of Rin between Obito's death and whatever happened to her. And Kakashi is rather closed mouth on it.
The only way I could see Kushina being alive is if they refused to let her have Naruto due to the fact that she was from another village. (Or you know, her and Minato's relationship was sort of secret and they just told her the baby died because it wasn't in the hospital after Minato snatched him.) Naruto is a secret/weapon than the Elders seemed pretty well determined to keep. I've always assumed she died in childbirth, but much like Rin, I'd like to know exactly what happened, rather than dismissing her because she's just the mom.
It's rather intresting to me that we know so little about Minato's Teammates, it's obvious that the Third's Teammates stuck around to help him out, why do we hear nothing of Minato's?
((I'm with you, he hasn't had his Flashbacks yet, and I refuse to believe he's dead until he does. Or you know, until the funeral happens and the body is produced.)
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Definitely some deep thought in there, and I never thought to compare Kakashi's team to the others.
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Ooo sannin story. What is it about? ^^
(admittedly Kakashi's team has a little less immediate relevance and is a little removed from "sannin and student of sannin". They're more cousins than in the direct line of descent? XD But their themes still echo there. Kishimoto likes to decline those in as many variations as he can.)
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XD and you made my drag back out the first chapter/snippet thing (it's drabbley. I don't do drabbley, but it IS) and post it finally. (only to spot a spelling error after. Argh.) I've got to do some heavy editing on later parts.
It's actually just a series of scenes for their life showing how things went wrong... And it goes with a couple crackpot theories I have, too. You might honestly just want to wait till there's more there to read it, but if you feel like it, it's over here now (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5000750/1/Sannin_Monogatari).
Snail?
(Anonymous) 2009-04-17 09:20 pm (UTC)(link)Re: Snail?
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The snakes are interesting – when you break them down they’re all the same:
- Lost parents
- Gained ambiguous motive (thirst for power + other)
- Gained 2nd Beloved (i.e. team mates & teacher)
- Slug&Frog&Teacher were Ineffective/Weak
- Lost +motive
- Gained Power.
Kakashi’s team were different – the Frog&Teacher were almost strong enough, but with the Slug being weak, and the Frog&Teacher only just being effective enough he lost his Team mates and had only +Motive and Power.
Sasuke’s Slug&Frog&Teacher are just strong enough – Naruto has the self will to keep up with him, sakura had an epiphany in the 2nd exam and gained some strength of character (enough to go after him before he left, if not fight him) and Kakashi was a refored snake – he carried the +Motive through along with his power. So they’ve bought themselves a 2nd chance.
It would fit the pattern for Kakashi to be dead now – all the previous teachers failed in that they died/left the team before they fully guided their team to success. However, because team7 are the break-the-pattern team, he might just survive…
(I love over analysis, it makes my day, breaking down the patterns in other peoples work. Shounen manga is brilliant for it =3)
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Also, I probably should have taken the teacher into account, because he does factor... Hrrrm. But then that means i'd have to rewrite.
Nooo Kakashi is alive! He hasn't seen post-timeskip Sasuke yet. He can't be dead! ;___; You're totally right, he's the one teacher who will survive because of Team Seven. Yes. >_____>
... I wonder if one of the divergences in the pattern is caused by the SNAKE being the teacher. I dunno about the third Hokage, or the Fourth, but they seem more like Frog figures to me, and Jiraiya definitely was one, for both his teams. (though, third hokage being called "the professor" makes me wonder if he wasn't a male Slug instead. XDD)
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I can safely imagine you were trying to figure out what exactly is the flaw in the previous teams that made them fail in the way that they did--and how different they are compaired to Team 7 and what would make the reader believe why they won't end up like the others...
Like it was said in the prior comments, Snake is an interesting character to look at. By the way I see it, I believe that they have the power to whether or not make the team prosper.
If you look at it at terms of a scale-- The frog is a cup on the right side and the slug is the cup on the left, leaving the snake in the middle. If you pull away the screw holding the balance in place the whole scale falls apart.
The snake is an intense ball of emotion, they have the power to heavily influence the other two characters in their team.
Naruto --> Is bonded strongly with Sasuke. His best friend. One can say his soul mate.
Sakura --> Childhood Crush. Related to her desire to be strong. To be supportive.
I don't remember but I read somewhere, that the frog/snake/slug were met to represent a chain of power. No one is stronger no one is weaker.
frog --> slug --> snake --> back to frog. (Like rock, paper, scissors).
The frog is defeated by the snake, but stronger than the slug.
The slug is defeated by the frog, but is stronger than the snake.
The snake is defeated by the slug, but is stronger than the frog.
This is in terms I would say by influence. Naruto is defeated by Sasuke because he lets his emotions take control of his thoughts, he can't think straight when he worries about Sasuke. Sakura who at first pratacically ignored him--is slowly starting to be influenced by him.
And so on, so on... I really can't drag this any further.
The point is-- what makes Team 7 significantly different is the frog. The frog is aways the loser in a sense:
Yahiko - is killed by Nagato
Obito - dies in a heroic attempt (thought I have to say this case special)
Jiraya - failes in saving Orochi, and dies without saving his pupil
But for Naruto, has a gift of charming anyone and getting them to be on good terms with them in someway- something usually found in a frog, but in Naruto's case he's using it break through to the Snake--to Sasuke.
You can say like an attempt to reverse the chain of power between them.
Ugh as I write this more possiblities and ideas pop up, but I think I already killed with my rambling.
But yeah, enjoy talking about this, and some how I feel that fate is somewhat tied with this as well.
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Hm, but if we push the rock-paper-scissors link farther, it means Sakura can "defeat" Sasuke somehow. Haven't seen that yet. XD I don't know if Kishimoto will use that particular dynamic in the story, alas. Though I could see her reaching Sasuke emotionally -- he did care about her in some way, after all, and he'd be less prone to just go WHO ME? I HAVE NO EMOTIONS. NOW DIE ALREADY, RARRR. like he'd be with Naruto. She might actually manage to get an explanation out of him! ... perhaps. >__>
of course Team Seven is awesome because all the cyclic patterns can go in both directions. *ships*
Ramble away! It's always awesome and shiny to read about theories.
(... I suspect we're thinking about this more than kishi ever will. XD Oh well.)