askerian | ... random law question ...

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... random law question ...

... for something in teamwork that's not even going to be a big plot point, just a quick mention...

For you law people... could Sasuke get in trouble, legally speaking, for burning down his own house? Sure, it's his house, and his district even, but it could have spread to the rest of Konoha -- besides the firefighters had to come and see that the fire was put out anyway, and the smoke might have bothered people living close by. When you burn your own house, do you get fined or anything? Who pays the firefighters?

EDIT: Okay so it would be reckless endangerment -- so would they drag him to see the cops right on the spot or would he get a convocation? What would happen this day? would there be a follow up? does he need to see a judge? How long would it take?

(and he really should make a donation to the firefighters, if he wants them to bother coming by the day his kids start learning Katon. XD)

There's no insurance on his house or the district, and the land itself belongs to him, not just the houses, or else the town would have taken care of stuff. hmmmm. verrry interesting. What does that mean regarding the taxes he pays and the laws? do they still apply the same way as with everyone else? (i don't need to know THAT, but it would be so interesting)

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as one of the more prominent families in Konoha, I guess Sasuke can do whatever he wants with his house. as for firefighters... they probably get paid by the fire, kinda like the shinobi get paid by the mission. the village probably pays them or summat like that. *_*

yeah, probably... *ponders* thanks hon ^^

The Konoha firefighters are probably composed of every ninja who's good at Suiton techniques. So yeah, the village would pay them, like for any other ninja mission, I imagine.

Uhhh... as long as it's HIS house on HIS property, Sasuke can do whatever he wants. There's lots of people who buy houses on property just to tear down the old house and build a new house someplace else on the property.

Technically, in the real world, Sasuke would have to check the municipal codes of the city to see if there's problems (like, turning off the water and power and such) and to make sure there's people who can put out a fire around in case the fire rages out of control.

... well, if he burned down his house for the insurance money, that's fraud and it's illegal. :P

And firefighters are generally paid out of the taxes, IIRC. But these are ninja, and they have water jutsu. Also, I think the Uchiha had a whole part of the city just for themselves (like a district) so since everyone is dead, no neighbors are around to complain.

/geekery

Hey check it out, my icon matches!

yeah but he didn't warn anyone "hay, i'mma gonna raze my house to the ground so be ready", he just burninated it. almost burned the other houses around too. Sure, it's his place, but still. it's not like he has miles and miles of empty ground around his place either -- even in the uchiha district the houses are pretty close to each other. Also in a ninja village they might be pretty unhappy about huge jutsus inside the town (like sasuke's katon) so they might even fine him for using such a destructive jutsu inside the walls. o_o; think it would be possible?

i'm not sure the houses are insured at all actually. otherwise someone would come and check on them sometimes, no?

XD so it does.

Oh, well just setting the place on fire would be illegal (though I'm sure Konoha would let him slide because he's Teh Last Uchiha). Fire's too dangerous and unstable and could rage around and be a big problem.

... I don't know if they'd fine Sasuke for letting off a big jutsu though. I mean, if there's a battle or fight or something, ninja seem to be able to destroy whatever they need to, in order to stop a threat. Hell, I'd hate to see if they docked Naruto's pay for smashing up the forest with Gamabunta when he fought Gaara. The same thing might be okay in practices or training, too. Though, I'm sure there's some sort of punishment for using your jutsu for destructive, non-helpful purposes.

And yeah, the insurance thing might not exist. Can you imagine ninja lawyers? I'd be scared to death. And the whole Uchiha compound seems to be abandoned; that would indicate that the Uchihas owned the LAND, not just the buildings, because a city generally just doesn't let their own property sit empty forever and ever even if there's a massacre.

Aha!! But that's when Konoha is under attack! So it's the martial law, and they're using lethal force because they're ninjas of Konoha and basically soldiers. Also, training happens on training grounds, which are outside the walls or on Academy grounds and pretty much nothing but clearings in the forest and pieces of wasteland. When it's during a time of peace, and in a residential area, I really don't think they encourage the use of big destructive ninjutsu stuff from their own ninjas.
(as for messing up the forest, japanese people are very clean inside their own houses/gardens, but you'll see them littering and pissing on the ground anywhere else, because they have a "outside doesn't belong to anyone" mentality and so they don't care what anyone does on it. Probably if it's outside the walls it's fair game.)

oooooooh I didn't know that about the land vs the houses. That's veeerrry interesting, and makes a lot of sense.

The difference is when they're under attack, yes. But we just saw in the manga how Sai let off his artsy jutsu thing to attack Naruto, Shikamaru and Chouji. And Chouji and Shikamaru both retaliated with jutsu. Plus, we see jutsu being used for smaller things (the teleporting thing, henge, kawarimi, etc.). I mean, this IS a ninja village. If people aren't allowed to use any jutsu at all, then you'd effectively telling people like the Uchiha and Hyuuga to not use their eyes. And the Inuzuka seem to always have dogs. :P And no running on the rooftops!

I tend to think that ninja are sort of separated from regular civilians in that they can use whatever jutsu they want, but they're supposed to use their common sense about it. You shouldn't set off a fire jutsu in your house, but if a ninja does it, they might be allowed to slide depending on the reasons for it. Afterall, we also do see chibi!Sasuke practicing the Katon in public. Yes, it's on a dock over water, but he was just a student and no one was running up to him saying: "HEY STOP THAT!"

Sai doesn't seem that preoccupied by property damage. (i'm not sure he's not a rotten traitor, so heh) As far as naruto and chouji and shika knew, they were defending against a possibly lethal threat -- also, shika's jutsu can't really destroy a whole house and he aims well. Now chouji, he might be able to destroy more, but he also can aim. XD and naruto moved to fight hand-to-hand, if i remember right, or using close combat jutsu.

Chibi!sasuke practices over water, which might be just fine for their laws -- and which might also be an official, or at least traditional, uchiha training ground. he's not practicing between houses, or in the middle of a group of people. :p

I don't think they care much about teleportation and localized stuff, but huge things like katon and the tree thing that Hokage could do, or even gamabunta summoning in the middle of the city, you bet they're not going to be happy with it. XD (but yeah, it's probably a "use your best judgment" thing. i don't think they can have a law for each and every jutsu out here, and as the effects depend on the strength of the user and the aim and everything...)

Fire's too dangerous and unstable and could rage around and be a big problem.

o_o but....isn't SASUKE dangerous and unstable and could smite Konoha with big jutsu?

yeah, you could get in a heck of a lot of trouble - arson is arson, regardless of whose property you burn, and the laws have traditionally been a lot stricter in Japan than in other places because houses are so much closer together and more cross-flammable.

On the other hand, since Sasuke IS the police department, I'm not sure whether they'd practically be able to send him to arrest himself... ^^;;

hmm. I'd have to look into japanese laws then, if i want a good idea...

... ah, the police WAS made mostly of Sasuke's clan, but he's not a cop and i'm sure they've replaced the missing Uchihas nowadays. XD so while i'm sure lots of cops would be willing to look the other way for him... XD

And not only are the houses close together (because there is not a whole lot of flat land in Japan) but they are made of wood and paper- they catch easily, and when they burn they burn fast and bright. At least, that's how it's been traditionally- probably less so nowadays with improved building codes and modern materials.

Peut-être pas de gros problèmes, mais les gens pourraient se demander ce qui lui a pris, lui qui est justement d'une famille importante, de brûler les vestiges de son clan disparu... et on pourrait aussi lui reprocher d'avoir deranger les pompiers :p

On peut aller en prison pour avoir brûler sa baraque je crois, la pyromanie est un crime plus qu'un vandalisme (je pense). En tout cas, les ados qui brûlent leur maisons on les fout en internat ou quelque-chose comme ça.

Maintenant, va savoir comment ils fonctionnent à Konoha ._.

la réaction des gens je m'en fiche un peu, c'est surtout rapport aux pompiers et à l'éventuelle visite au poste de police pour qu'il s'explique. XD;;;

les ados qui brûlent leur maison sont rarement les seuls à y vivre alors c'est plus du vandalisme. Sasuke pouvait arguer qu'il voulait juste contruire autre chose, c'est pas comme si elle était encore habitée. XD

XD nan, je veux dire, se faire convoquer par le conseil ou un truc dans le genre, histoire de lui demander s'il est devenu taré.

Mmmh, mais je sais pas si tu peux brûler un bâtiment comme ça, parce que tu veux en construire un autre...t'imagines le bordel ? XD Mais en même temps ça dépend des pays. Et pis Konoha existe pas, alors invente ce que tu veux :p

XD je crois qu'il cramerait leur convocation et leur répliquerait que c'est pas leur blem et qu'ils s'occupent de choses plus importantes.

XDD certainement. A ce moment-là, il a pas de blèms du tout ._.

Ah, en France c'est 5 ans de prison si on met le feu à plusieurs et 2 ans tout seul + une sacrée amende. Et au Japon...va savoir. Sûrement dix fois plus de prison ^^""

(deleted comment)

hmm. yeah, the uchiha houses are all pretty close to each other, aren't they. they still have gardens, but some of the houses are leaning against each other. though the district IS protected from the rest of Konoha by a wall, I guess it could still jump...

Insurance, i'm not sure still works. it's been what, ten years or so since the clan died and no one comes to keep the houses in a good state, i think the district was more or less abandoned. Maybe silce legally only sasuke could okay anything and he was still too young -- but then wouldn't his tutor have okayed it -- but he doesn't seem to have any, even at twelve, ARGH.

SO. whatever. Misdemeanor -- what would happen to him? Would he have to pay a fine, go see a judge? what would happen and how long would it take? (also, think they'd send him to the cops on the spot, or they'd come with the firefighters ?)

Setting fire without letting the authorities know means you're putting neighbors (potentially) at risk. Most of the time I've seen a fire purposefully set, it was used in tandem as a training exercise with the local fire department, and it took all day. They started the fire, put it out, started it, put it out, and all the firemen ran around and did drills with real hoses and stuff! Heh.

Most likely -- assuming he didn't then try to get insurance money (hah), or didn't put anyone else in danger or accidentally destroy other peoples' property -- he'd be fined. It is, after all, his own property. You can wreck your own car and get a fine for reckless driving, or you can smash it up with a ballpeen hammer. The former gets a fine only for the means by which it was done.

At twelve, he'd be underage, and (at least in the US) his records would be sealed as a juvenile. From what I understand, most 3rd world countries do have separate fines/punishments for crimes based on whether one has reached the age of adulthood, whether this be 14, 16, or 18. In the US it's 18; I seem to recall in the EU it's 16. I don't know what it might be in Japan, but I'd bet it's 16, since 15 is considered "the last year of innocence".

Err, anyway. Yeah. Fire pretty.

ohh! thank you ^_____^ So since he didn't warn first, it's bad! yay fine. XD

I used the wrong tense ^^; just meant that even at twelve he seemed to be living alone and responsible for himself, he didn't seem to have a tutor. Maybe there was someone giving him money and paying his living expenses or whatever that's called, and maybe he got some visits from a social assistant to see if he was eating properly and not living in a pigsty, but i'm not sure they cared for the rest of his property that closely.

Generally the person responsible for an orphaned child is called a legal guardian, not a tutor.

And yes, I am quite sure the Uchiha owned their district, lock, stock, and barrel. (This actually comes up in "Guardian," because that must have been a legal and financial mess, with an entire clan's estates suddenly landing on one seven-year-old-boy. I don't know exactly how Konoha's tax laws work, but Sasuke had to have gotten financial advice from somebody or he'd have been in ridiculous amounts of debt from property taxes by the start of the series, since empty land in the middle of a city is a massive financial drain. He's clearly well-off -- his apartment is very nice, from the few anime screen-shots I've seen, and yet he seems to still own the Uchiha district, since the buildings haven't been cleared or sold. He must have his clan accounts invested in various high-interest things in order to keep from losing the district, or something along those lines. Maybe he got a tax write-off if he let the district be used for low-impact urban training exercises?)

You know what? I don't think there would be legal problems for Sasuke. He's got more than enough common sense not to try to claim insurance (and indeed I very much doubt that the place has insurance- even if it once did, Sasuke was gone for three years and if no one pays the premiums the policy ceases to have any effect) and he's a competent enough ninja that he could put the fire out with a Suiton technique if it got out of control. This is Konoha, not a real town, and Konoha is governed more on a common sense basis than a bureaucratic basis.

That was me btw. Login, meh.

Bleh. I forgot about reckless endangerment. ;__; Then again, I was thinking of how the Uchiha were widely known for their fire jutsus, so having a lot of fire about would be around the norm. x___X

Well, it's only insurance fraud if you try to receive money fraudulently.

I mean, if I bought a car, and got car insurance, and I then took a sledgehammer to it, the insurance people wouldn't get involved unless I asked them to pay me the insurance money. Anything else would step on the face of what everyone understands as property law.

(Sasuke wouldn't get in trouble for destroying his own property -- he'd get in trouble for using a way that put other people's property in danger.)

FIREFIGHTER: Now that the fire is under control, we need to find the parties responsible for this. How is it that the three of you just happened to be around when this place burned down?
SASUKE: ...
NARUTO: Well, this idiot-
SAKURA: What he means to say is that the two of them were training a ways off and we saw, erm... there was this, um...
SASUKE: ...
NARUTO: There was lightning!
SAKURA AND FIREFIGHTER: What?!
FIREFIGHTER: (skeptical) Lightning... in Konoha?
SAKURA: *glaring at Naruto* Eh, yes. A freak storm, really.

hahahaha!! XD that would be funny, too. (but then they'd get in trouble for lying)

Alas! sasuke doesn't feel like bothering to lie his way out of it. XD

Yes, he did technically commit arson, and possibly reckless endangerment. Since the house is his, he's not liable for damages, but I imagine that at the least the fire department isn't terribly happy with him for dragging their asses out. Of course, in Konoha it seems that crime and punishment is likely to be heavily influenced by who you know in authority, so Sasuke isn't likely to get actually charged with anything (though Tsunade would probably chew him out).

Actually, it's possible that there's a permit of some sort he could apply for, which would make this all legal, though that would somewhat kill the spontenaity.

XD Tsunade would be SO happy to see him. She's been seeing so much of Sakura and Naruto these days after all. XDDD

getting it after the fact would be a little too late, methinks XD seeing as he didn't plan on it...

Yes, and we all know how warm and forgiving Tsunade is, even of people who haven't been involved in giving her the Week from Hell. XD .....Maybe he should just pay the fine, instead.

Yeah, that's kinda what I thought, though it's been a while since I read that bit and I couldn't remember if he'd been half-planning it or not.

Lurker law student chiming in - usually I only bother checking this journal for fic updates, but hey, I can't resist an opportunity to harp on my favorite subject, :).

The people who mentioned reckless endangerment are correct. In many jurisdictions, Sasuke could also be charged with a public welfare offense (for causing smoke pollution, or being a nuisance to the fire department, or any number of things). There are very hefty fines for public welfare offenses; however, they aren't "criminal" charges, much in the same way that getting a parking ticket isn't a criminal charge. Sasuke would have to go before a judge, but it wouldn't be a criminal trial. He would only go to jail if he was unable to pay the fine.

Honestly, Sasuke's real concern should be that his fire doesn't accidentally hurt someone, or destroy someone else's property. That would more than likely end with him being sued into the poor house. If his fire hurt someone, he could also be charged with criminal negligence, and end up in prison for quite some time.

Hope that helps!

-- Interweb Lawyer

Just to clarify, when I say that a public welfare offense trial "wouldn't be like a criminal trial", I mean that the burden of proof is lower. With a crime, the prosecution would have to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that Sasuke wilfully burnt down his house, with no regard for the welfare of others. With a regulatory offense, all that the prosecution has to prove is that Sasuke probably allowed his house to burn down. It then becomes Sasuke's job to prove that he didn't. So while with criminal charges it's "innocent until proven guilty", with regulatory offenses it's "if the prosecution can prove that something bad happened, then prove yourself innocent."

Assuming that Sasuke wasn't able to beat his charge, then it would be the judge's job to decide if their would be fines, community service, or (in rare extreme cases) jail time. The judge can pretty much do whatever the hell she wants, so long as she doesn't sentence Sasuke to something above the maximum fine or penalty set out in law. Sasuke better hope the judge likes his demon-lovin' ass, :P.

Personally, I think the judge would probably be pretty harsh with a case like Sasuke's. Sasuke can't argue carelessness or accident all that easily, becuase his family are fire jutsu experts - he should know the proper precautions to take. Moreover, Sasuke's actions would be clear evidence that he's not exactly mentally stable, which could result in his ability to work as a ninja being limited (much like how people who drive dangerously, get their driving permits revoked.

As for property law? Since Sasuke is a minor, he'd have to have the land held in trust for him, until the age of majority. Minors can't own land. Even if Sasuke managed all of the Uchiha assets on his own, he'd probably need that trustee/legal-guardian to sign all of the paperwork for him. Otherwise the court would probably not recognize it as binding.

Note that this is general rule for common law jurisdictions - the UK and the Commonwealth. It might be slightly different under French Civil Law. :)

-- Interweb Lawyer

I've always been partial to the idea that the Uchiha (and Hyuuga, and any other big clans in Konoha) can get away with just about anything due to some clause in Konoha law, or a treaty at the founding of the village. The clans must have held a certain amount of power in their freedom before Konoha was founded; would clans as powerful as Uchiha and Hyuuga really want to give that up to join a village? It also so nicely explains why the Hyuuga can get away with the nigh equivalent of servitude with the whole cursed seal thing. I mean, clan heads have power over their people, but that's kind of stretching it... There's gotta be something that pardons these things. If not for clans, then maybe for ninja with all the damage they undoubtedly cause. A fine to cover the firefighters and that's all.

I think if it was anyone besides Sasuke, there would be hell to pay. I can imagine what would happen of someone like Naruto did that.

But with Sasuke, I think it would end up sliding. He is a pretty powerful figure given he's the last of his clan, not to mention that, if he does own the land and it does nothing but sit there, he's paying a lot of taxes to the village. I'm not saying that there wouldn't be a lecture or two (or five), but I don't see him getting into a great deal of trouble for it. Maybe a fine.

Where I live, it's illegal to have bonfires. But unless it's been a really dry year, nobody does anything about it if you do have a bonfire. They tend to ignore it as long as it isn't something that lights up the sky(like burning a house would) That's the country, though, and I'm not sure how it would apply to the middle of a populated area

Tonnes of other people have already replied, but I think you're right about the insurance thing. What company in their right mind would offer to insure a ninja family? I'm still amazed the series hasn't shown what would really happen with a bunch of teenagers who possess super-human strength and abilities... ie: lots of fires and broken walls.

Anyway, I'd say he'd be fined by the city if their firefighters work the way ours do in real life. Mostly because he didn't call it in to tell them he'd be lighting a massive fire, he didn't check if it was allowed in his area, and he didn't have a permit for it. Regardless of whether or not the property was 100% his, etc... if he didn't have a permit, he was breaking the law.

The reason why fires and broken walls don't happen in Konoha is that even though the teenagers have superhuman strenth and abilites, the adults have more superhuman strength and abilities.

Well, yeah, but I think about it this way (specifically with the burny burny): In junior high, I had a bunch of friends going through that "fire phase" where everything and anything flammable was set on fire. This included school property and that's where the problem was. The fact that teachers/parents/the police who showed up on a regular basis *cough* had more _power_ didn't stop them from doing it at all. In fact, it was a game, a challenge to see how long it could last before they got caught. It's a teenage mentality of rebellion - it's not supposed to make any sense. :)

Besides, look at the crime rate in whichever city you live in. Check out how much of the petty crime falls into the 15-24 demographic. I'm not talking about ninja killing sprees or anything, just the usual teenage rebellion stuff, but fueled by chakra. Scaaarrrryyy...

Meh... don't know much about Naruto, but... from what I know of legalities— yes, you can get in trouble for burning down your own house.

Granted... even if there's no insurance on it and you're not doing it to collect an insurance claim, it's still falls under reckless endangerment and arson. (Both of which will get you jail time.)

I'd assume that as soon as the cops figured out that he did it... he'd most likely get hauled off and have to at least talk to a magistrate or a judge. (He definitely wouldn't be getting off scott free— even if it was his own property. He'd still likely have to pay some hefty fines or do a short stint in jail.)

He'd also have to pay the fire-department for services rendered.

^____^ hee! thank you for the input.

... and it's just going to be like three lines of fic too. XD;;;;;; damn it, i think too hard about that stuff.

It would be arson and he would have to be at least questioned.

But I think that you should not worry too much about this detail because in manga people burn down their houses all the time and it slides. eg. ed and al burn their house in fma.

You could have him get a lecture from the village authority and maybe some community service.

haha sasuke doing community service. XD

It's just going to be a quick mention anyway, but i just wanted to make sure I didn't need to mention more of that stuff later or something.

Sasuke: ... *cleaning streets* ._.
Naruto: ... *drops wrapper* >3
Sasuke: ... Fu- *fight occurs*
Sakura: ... =_=;
Tsunade: ! *fumefume* *hands paper*
Sasuke/Naruto: *reads* Community service?! D:

x3
Sorry I don't know anything about legal issues. And reading everyone's answers before mine's making my head hurt. Xx;

Hee Sasuke doing community sevivce. *snork* The thought amuses me.

I know everyone and their mom has replied to this already, but I think they're missing out on one of the big differences between the naruto-verse and real life- this is not a city. It's not a state, with lots of laws and red tape and such. It's a village, and not a very large one at that, populated mostly by pseudo-military nutcases or those who aspire to be such, and ruled over by the nutcase who can do the most damage at any given time. Like, if naruto did something like that, there'd be hell to pay, because he's naruto and a kid and everyone hates him. If neji did that, no one in the town could touch him, but there'd probably be the equivalent of torture from the clan heads. For sasuke, I can see it making people question his sanity, and I can see tsunande being pissed as all hell at him, but I don't really see there being all that much in the way of legality getting involved, y'know? Maybe they don't let him go on missions they might otherwise have, or something, but a court hearing seems waaay over the top. Especially for property damage in an entire district owned by the arsonist, who is the head of a previously powerful clan. Besides, even if the village elders or whatever (who seem more like what sasuke would be up against than a judge or something in the first place) called sasuke up, you cna bet they all owe the uchiha from somewhere back. It's bizarre to think about people messing with Uchiha Sasuke over something minor like that, y'know? I mean, he practically killed a teammate and abandoned his village to train with their enemy, and got away with it. And he's gonna catch shit over burning down his own house, in a controled fire?

Exactly what I was thinking, and expressed some ways above. Only you said it better. Total Agreement here.

*dies and is ded*

oh god, that would be so cracktastic. XD

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... random law question ...

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