Who came first, Team Yondaime or Team Yahiko?

[askerian]

... okay, trustly F-list. I have a DILEMMA.

lyarrah was wondering, AND NOW OF COURSE IT TORTURES ME --

Who did Jiraiya train first, Yahiko or Yondaime?

askerian: well, yondaime was in his twenties when he DIED and that was like 16 years ago?
askerian: and pain and konan look like they're no more than 30
askerian: ... well, nagato looks 20 going on 70
askerian: but
askerian: ... but in the other hand
lyarrah: Okay so him first. Which is totally what I thought but the internet keeps saying it's the other way around and I'm all "...wtf.... the Sannin were NOT 23-24 when they fought Hanzou..."
askerian: in the other hand back when he met yahiko and the others, jiraiya was still hanging out with his teammates.
lyarrah: *nods* But that seems more like a "they're the very best, we'll send them together" thing
askerian: *tears hair out*
askerian: *gently*



edit: so... a bazilion super-smart comments and arguments and strong hints, we... still have no idea? DX Lyarrah, hon... how 'bout you just use whatever works for your fic. I swear no one will know.

Comments

[lyarrah.livejournal.com]

It's a legitimate question D:

Cuz seriously all we have to go off of is Jiraiya's apparent age when training the two, which is... basically the same, and any differences are likely just Kishimoto's artstyle...

And Konan's apparent age, which, given Naruto laws, and using Temari, Anko, and Kurenai as examples... could be anywhere from 20 to 40.

D:

[senior-witch.livejournal.com]

I read a post about this question some time ago. To me it seems like another case of timeline mess-up, and I will wait for Kishimoto, or some data book, to clarify it, and not do his work.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I'd say he trained Yahiko and co first. The timelines are screwed up enough that I don't really have a good reason for this, I just think that's the way that makes the most sense.

[hardcoreheathen.livejournal.com]

That's easy.

He trained Yahiko & Co. in the same time period in which Sakura learned to dispel genjutsu. You know, that mythical era in the Land of Convenient Plot Devices.

[(Anonymous)]

i assumed that he trained yahiko and the others first, mostly because that makes more sense, but then i thought about how old they are currently. nagato and konan look like they're in their late twenties/early thirties, but then that would conflict with kakashi being about thirty years old presently.

if jiraiya trained nagato, yahiko and konan first, it must have only been for about three years or so and then right after, started training minato and his team. so then how old would that make them? mid-to-late forties? and what about minato? does kishi ever clarify how much older he is than kakashi?

[askerian]

I think he died at 24? But maybe that's a fanon thing. And that was when Naruto was born. Kakashi was 27 when Naruto was 12, but I have no clue how much difference of age there was between Kakashi and Minato.

.... guhhh.

[kittychan1986.livejournal.com]

Hum, it's hard to say, on one hand I would say. "Of course, he left them to go train Minato."

On the other, judging by the Book and their reactions to and giving you a time line by the presentation of the book. He was training them at the same time. And it all happened in an impossibly short window of time...Or else Minato stumbled a crossed the book years later.

I would say, the distance between the training of the two teams is very short, and by the time Yahiko died, Minato would already have been old enough to become Hokage.

((Which really, getting pissed at Konoha at that period in their history? Is like getting pissed at the homeless guy for being homeless.))

[venia.livejournal.com]

I too think he trained the three of them first, Yondaime after. I have nowhere to base this, just that if he had already had a student he would mention it...?o.O It's more logical to think he took a student later, when Jounins were not asked on A-rank missions and war had stopped (why a single one btw? no teammates? Heeh I like how one question brings another.XD)

Ok, let's do some calculations! Jiraya is 50 when he meets 12-year-old Naruto. Yondaime died 12 years before, that means Kyuubi attacked when Jiraya was 38. At that time Yondaime was...how old? He died ...(help plz I'm so bad at guessing ages) let's say at 23, so he and Jiraya must have aproximately 15 years of difference. Taking for granted that Yondaime graduated from the academy at 12 (unless an uchiha-like genious), it comes out that Jiraya became his sensei at 38-11=27. Definitely older than the age he seems to be when he trained the three kids. So yeah...Yondaime came after. @__@ *pant pant*

[venia.livejournal.com]

...ok I'm rereading this and honestly I'm not convinced. If Yondy died at 24, the age difference between him and Jiraya is 14 years only, and if he graduated from academy at a younger age -let's say 10- to receive jounin training, Jiraya was 24 when he took him as a student. Hm. Does he look older than 24 when he trains the three? I don't know, conclusions are up to you. XD

[doc-destructo.livejournal.com]

Jiraiya is 50 when we first meet him. He was 38 when the Kyuubi attacked. Minato was 10 when he graduated from the academy. If we assume Minato is roughly the same age as most shinobi when he becomes a father for the first time (26-28), then Jiraiya was roughly 20-22 when he taught Minato's group. Which is about the same age that Sarutobi taught the Sannin group (23).

It makes more sense for Jiraiya to have spent his late teens/early twenties tutoring Team Rain Orphans after just getting his rep and then going back to Konoha and teaching Team Jiraiya with Minato in his early to mid-twenties. Otherwise, we have the Sannin getting their nickname sometime around their mid-twenties and Jiraiya teaching TRO into late twenties.

Also, it makes more sense for his first book to be dedicated to Nagato if Jiraiya hasn't met Minato yet, since he seemed to care for Minato so much more. But hey, it's Kishi and heaven only knows how he plans for these things to pan out.

[hime-no-nishi.livejournal.com]

Yahiko and company first. The one indicator of Jiraiya's age are those stripes that he has and is the one thing that Kishimoto keeps on paying attention to with his drawings and they were shorter with Yahiko and company than when he was training Yondaime. And it also makes sense with the cycle of fighting between the other hidden villages. I may be misremembering the details but I'm pretty sure that Kishimoto said that after Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru split up that Jiraiya took Minato, Tsunade took on Shizune and Orochimaru took on Anko.

[hereforhanadan.livejournal.com]

Hmm... I was gonna argue that Yondaime was trained first but your argument sounds plausible... This is kinda like math. I love and hate math!

[icelightning.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I was actually looking for the picture where Jiraiya was with his genin team, but I can't remember if it's even in the manga (and what chapter it would be). I clearly remember it in the anime, though, but it's not always canon.

[midnigh-unicorn.livejournal.com]

*should have read other comments before adding theirs* >.>;;

[hereforhanadan.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure that Team Orphans are atleast a decade older that Kakashi... Seeing that Yondaime trained Kakashi. And I am also pretty sure that there's more or less a decade age gap between a jounin-sensei and genin team. Now where to put Team Orphan..

[hereforhanadan.livejournal.com]

*points to previous comment* that is me being sleep-deprived thus making no sense. Anyway, I think Yodaime was trained first than Team Yahiko. Well, that makes sense if Nagato and co.'s age is around Kakashi's age. But then his eye line thingy would be disregarded. Hrm... And besides if Team Yahiko were trained first that would make them around the same age as Yondaime. And they don't look like they're almost 40 or something (assuming that Yondaime died around his mid-twenties).

Can somebody point me to the chapter where Minato was reading Jiraiya's book?

[rosalui.livejournal.com]

It sort of had to be Yahiko first, just because... if Minato had been around... it probably would not have planned out the same way?

I DUNNO. SENSE, THIS DOES NOT MAKE ANY.

[nilladriel.livejournal.com]

lol'ing becaues you're expecting kishimoto of all people to have a non-wtf'd timeline

[midnigh-unicorn.livejournal.com]

Look at the little markies under his eyes o.o The bigger they are the older he is. Personally I think he trained Yahiko first. Personally, I'm not all that concerned

[cyberdigi.livejournal.com]

if a lurker may put her two cents in.

When the Sannin fought Honzou, it seems like they were in the middle of the same war that Tsunade's lover (can't remember his name) died in. If you take into account the account in the original series, and that Sandiame looked quite young, and the fact that a new Hokage didn't even to seem to be a thought; I'd say Yahiko was first. But I'd also hazard to guess that Yondaime was not too long afterward.

[questofdreams.livejournal.com]

Uh... I didn't actually go back to verify this in the manga chapters b/c I'm lazy lol but I'd say he trained Yondaime first.

I say this because his book, Legend of the Gutsy Ninja or whatever it was called >_> was based off of Nagato. And, by the time he left Nagato/Yahiko/Konan to their own devices, the book was complete (Nagato found the complete book on the table where, presumably, Jiraiya had deliberately left it behind for him). And then, in the flashback with Yondaime, you see him already grown up, with little Naruto on the way, giving what is (also presumably) his first impression of the book to Jiraiya and wanting Naruto to grow up to be like the main character. I'd wager the training of Team Yahiko/writing the book happened while Yondaime was already a jounin and off training his own team. Then Jiraiya returned from his extensive travels (lol) with his new book in tow while Minato and Kushina were settling in together.

I figure the reason that he was with Orochimaru and Tsunade wasn't b/c they were still an official team and he hadn't yet taken on any pupils, but because they HAD been a team and worked well together, as evidenced by the fact they went on to be known as the Sannin =P

Well, it makes sense in my head anyway ._.

eta: Also, considering how young the Yondaime had been when he died... if you tack on 15 years, I'm pretty sure that would make him older than the present Konan and Nagato. Minato would have to be considerably older (by 'considerably,' I mean at least more than a decade or two) than Kakashi, and I'd wager a guess that Konan and Nagato are only about Kakashi's age.

sorry for all the edits >_>;;;

[lyarrah.livejournal.com]

See, this is more what I'd been thinking... but people bring up points that make the other way seem right too... @.@ So confusing...

[tricia1224.livejournal.com]

Did Jiraiya train the N/Y/K after the Ninja War? Maybe not that long before the end of the war. If that was the case then he would have trained the 4th before them, because the 4th had his own team which included Kakashi during the war. But I am not sure how long the war lasted, or how long the war lasted. Course it could be that Jiraiya trained them and decided he liked training and took on the the 4th and his team. They were orphaned during the war and Kakashi's father, I believe committed suicide before the war or at the beginning of it.

[tricia1224.livejournal.com]

OK so he trained them for three years during the war. but aroune the end of the war is when Yohiko died. If that is the case then that still puts the 4th having his own team during that time.