askerian: Serious Karkat in a red long-sleeved shirt (Itachi_Falling-Pretty eye)
askerian ([personal profile] askerian) wrote2007-01-04 04:40 am
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(naruto) On Itachi's sexuality -- ramble

So here I was, with my notes for Teamwork and a vague thought that maybe I should work on Cyborg stuff, and of course, what do I do? Go and write an essay on something that's totally irrelevant. XD;

Please point out anything that doesn't make sense or that you believe isn't true/is badly explained/needs to be expanded; I'm not claiming to be an expert on either Uchiha Itachi or debating. XD


EDITED ON FEB.8.07


On Uchiha Itachi's sexuality~

What we know of Itachi:

1) Itachi is quite probably a certifiable sociopath, or at least borderline. He kills his best friend in exchange for power, he kills his own parents and all his extended family because they failed to measure up to what he thought they should be, he tortures and manipulates his little brother into trying to meet his almost impossibly high standards. Even if he has strong, lasting feelings, they don't count as much as his goals to him.
(I'm not an expert at sociopaths, and of course anime people don't have to stick really close to Real Life psychology, but [livejournal.com profile] ew_younerd was kind enough to essay in the comments about how much the shoe fits. :p)

2) Itachi is highly professional; he is proud, in a passionless way, of his abilities; he takes his objectives seriously. (Personal goals rank higher than Akatsuki goals, but Akatsuki goals are probably still pretty high up.)

3) Itachi is generally polite, because he's got no reason not to be. People who are rude usually show either crudeness or are masking uncertainties; Itachi is neither crude nor uncertain of anything.

4) Itachi is quiet, and only talks when he has something to say.

5) Itachi isn't entirely emotionless -- as a teenager he got angry (presumably when he was still processing the decision to kill his clan); he showed Sasuke more care than he strictly would have needed to show in order to stay under the radar, which hints that he wasn't actually faking; he teased him. As an adult, he -- briefly -- smirks mockingly during his fight against Kurenai. He can feel amusement and annoyance; he's not a total robot.

6) Itachi isn't very physical; he fights with his mind first, using illusions mostly, then fire, or kunai and kicks when people get too close. (he does touch Sasuke, but that was less of a fight and more of driving home a lesson.)


Itachi is aloof, though he has emotions -- but if he is some kind of sociopath, then they're probably pretty shallow, and pass rather fast; and if they stay with him for any length of time, he is very good at ignoring them. If he has normal emotions : good ninjas probably have to be good at compartmentalizing; as in all ninja things, he is no doubt excellent at it. Either way, getting an emotional toehold in Itachi's fortress would require tremendous amounts of time and effort, not to mention the right personality.


The right personality:

1) Itachi has no sense of pity or empathy. What is weak must be used, ignored or destroyed. If he sees an unprotected weakness, he will take advantage of it, unless it is in his best interests not to -- but once he sees it, he will lose respect for the other character. If a character is to get close to Itachi, they have to be morally strong -- self-confident, determined and not easy to influence or make doubt. Not to say that they can't have any weaknesses, that's boring, but they have to be aware of their weaknesses and not completely shatter if the weakness is prodded.

-- Note: I do not necessarily mean "weak" as in "would be killed by Itachi in a fight." If that were so, everyone but Sir Leader and a couple of his teammates would get nothing but contempt, but he does treat Kisame with respect, even though Kisame is overall weaker than him. I mostly mean "weak" as in "mentally weak", like someone being blinded (by pride, laziness or stupidity) to one of his own faults.
For example, he was respectful of Kakashi's abilities, and showed caution, even trying to avoid the fight entirely, even though Kakashi is overall weaker; this is most likely because Kakashi has a sharp mind, has very few flaws and a lot of tricks up his sleeve, and utilizes his potential to its full capacity. Kakashi isn't weak by any definition of the word; he's "just" A-class. Itachi is S-class. Oops. Kakashi's still lethal enough to warrant some respect.


2) Itachi's main goals to kill his clan were "to measure his own capacity" and "because they had grown weak and complacent." It doesn't matter if the character has a bloodline or not; what does matter is that they can't be lazy, or rest on their laurels. They have to be dedicated to make themselves into everything they can be.

3) Itachi would probably tolerate -- or more likely ignore -- a person's annoying quirks as long as they were strong, competent and lethal enough to earn the right to flaunt them. But it truly would have to be earned. Anyone else mouthing off to him would be utterly ignored up until they got too bothersome; then they would get bitchslapped into the ground and ignored again, if there is a reason why he cannot kill them outright.
(Though if he has to be civil for a mission, he can probably tolerate a lot -- but that's no basis for a relationship, since the only thing it would do is making him regard the other person like a bothersome retard and totally dismiss them.)

4) [livejournal.com profile] tsukashi also made an excellent point in the comments. Itachi is likely suffering boredom. "I believe he joined Akatsuki to relieve some of that boredom. Not much is stronger than him and not much challenges him. He may have stayed with Konoha until he found the Akatsuki, not having much direction until that point. Once he had a goal to reach for, he went all out." It's tough to be such a genius, after all. 9_9 I find that the possibility -- that a teen genius with little ability to emotionally engage himself and a tendency to base his opinion of people on their strength would grow bored and desperate for a challenge -- does seem quite likely. The ability of the other character to offer a challenge -- mental or physical -- will likely be a big factor.



Physical attraction:

It can be hard to see Itachi as someone who feels honest sexual desire -- he seems pretty uncaring that way, though we really don't see enough of him to judge if he's entirely asexual, or does have sexual urges but thinks that his hand is just as good as someone else's body, as far as getting rid of said urge goes. Heck, we haven't seen him enough to judge whether he's the kind who would never ever touch someone else, or the kind who's willing to spend a half-hour with some random prostitute when he isn't busy with a mission. (I'm leaning more toward "my hand is good enough," but that's my personal bias; the other opinion could work just as well if well-written.)

What he isn't, though, is the kind of person who gives sex much actual importance and who will let his libido distract him; it's a biological imperative, to be made into a tool or done away with, and presumably an acceptable pastime, and that's it.

His body is a weapon that he uses to get to his goals; and sex is a pastime at best, not a goal in itself. No one knows if he finds girls or boys or screaming people or goats attractive; so the writer has free reign to guess there. Itachi would probably have no problem watching people he finds attractive, but he wouldn't make a lot of efforts or take a lot of risks to get them. Who knows if that pretty thing who would look so nice in his bed isn't a kunoichi on an assassination mission, after all?

As for being a rapist, that seems a lot of effort for little payoff. Rapists are generally insecure, angry people who feel the need to dominate and violate someone to prove to themselves that they're in control and really not as weak or pitiful as they feel. Itachi doesn't need to make himself feel stronger than some random chick, he's already stronger than most everyone he knows and perfectly confident in that fact. It would be less bothersome to jerk off to thoughts of him/her, if s/he really is that attractive.

If the person were right under his nose, and vulnerable, and they could not in all likelihood retaliate, I could possibly see him raping them, not because he wants to feel dominant, but because it would be easy and safe and he really doesn't care what they feel, but even so it's really not that likely -- seems like a lot of work for little payoff -- and depends a lot on the writer's skill. Besides, if the person is so unimportant, he would probably not bother with them at all. But just in case he does, he wouldn't be so overcome with lust that he would put himself even slightly at risk just to get someone in his bed. And if they matter so little to him, there's a good chance he would kill them once he's done, too.

Sidenote: After all the trouble he went to eradicate the Uchiha clan, he would not be stupid enough to knock up a girl by accident. Unless this is part of his mysterious master plan, in which case a mention of said plan is required.
Personally, I tend to assume that he expects Sasuke to revive the clan. But I don't see him truly caring either way; the only thing a child would provide is a possibility to eventually grow enough to be a challenge. He's probably hoping that Sasuke will sooner than later kill him, so he won't be around to make sure the child trains properly, and if he knocks up some random girl and leaves, his spawn will end up with no knowledge of anything ninja. The scenario isn't impossible, but it requires some thought. (He could arrange for Sasuke to learn of the child's existence after his death; or he could knock up a kunoichi, but that opens up another can of worms right here that I don't feel like touching now.)
He already has his challenge, and his legacy; Sasuke is already a monument to Itachi, and if Sasuke has children, Itachi's mark will be on the way he raises them. He'll be remembered as the one who ended the Uchiha clan. Why would he need to leave his mark on the world with something as pedestrian as children? This is something that requires explanation.




Romance with Itachi:

-Ahahahahahano.

Relationship with Itachi:

The other person wouldn't necessarily have to be a ninja, though Itachi's entire personality is centered on being a ninja and he might not relate easily to someone who doesn't have a similar experience of life. (for some reason I could imagine him with a healer of some sort -- but not the gentle and caring kind, more like the ice princess who could save or poison people without blinking kind.) But they still...

-Should have potential. Should be trying their best to realize their potential. (reminder, Itachi's expectations of what "best" entails are insanely high.)

-Should be calm under pressure and competent at whatever they do.

-Not necessarily beautiful in a conventional sense; Itachi is pretty enough for two. :p More seriously, he would probably be attracted to the way someone moves or fights just as much as their beauty when they're sitting down and not doing anything but looking pretty, if not more. Aesthetics probably don't matter more than personality and presence, or even as much.

-Preferably not too eccentric and disrespectful. He will tolerate some weirdness, but he can still feel annoyance just fine, (if he can't, then he can't feel anything at all, which isn't likely for reasons stated above, and would also means that the pairing will be pretty damn one-sided) and he won't respect them if they don't respect him.

-Should walk the line between challenging him and threatening him. He might really appreciate being kept on his toes, be it mentally or physically. It would highlight the fact that the person isn't subservient to him, or cowed, and has their own goals and strength of character. (Though whether the challenges are permanent, or whether the other person knows when to lay off can go either way. In the first case, he might be even more amused, but he wouldn't relax around them, ever.) But if the person honestly threatens his life permanently, he probably would not hesitate to get rid of them. (except if that person is Sasuke, and even then, it's doubtful -- he might really be using Sasuke as a tool to keep himself from growing complacent, after all, and not really planning on letting Sasuke kill him at all.)


Potential canon-based relationships

-ItaSasu: Sasuke is the only person left alive that Itachi ever displayed feelings for. They could have been faked, though in that case he seems to have been going farther than strictly necessary. He encouraged Sasuke, expressed his belief that they were brothers and would always be, and left him alive because he appreciated the way Sasuke still wanted to surpass him, even though he loved Itachi.

(While Itachi seems to care and think about Sasuke a lot less than Sasuke thinks about Itachi, he still would be quite miffed if the center of Sasuke's world became something else. He took a lot of pain to establish himself as Sasuke's only goal and driving force.)

-ItaKisa: Kisame seems rather sarcastic, which I see as possibly amusing Itachi, who seems to find some faint amusement into mocking people. Perhaps a little more talkative than Itachi, but he's still polite with Itachi and not annoyingly chatty. He's incredibly powerful and ruthless, which Itachi approves of. He visibly respects Itachi; Itachi and him are what seems to be the only team in the Akatsuki who doesn't spend their time bitching each other out. They seem to have a good working partnership where they get along and respect each other's abilities. They might trust each other far enough to have an arrangement where they help each other with their personal, non-strictly-akatsuki goals. In that vein, it wouldn't be too hard to imagine them pushing the arrangement into more physical matters.

-Possibly other Akatsuki people, since they're all extremely powerful and dangerous; though their purposes aren't the same and Itachi knows better than to get involved seriously with someone who will use it against him in any way, be it to belittle him in front of the rest of the organization, or backstab him whenever convenient.

-ItaShisui: ... He was his best friend? Shisui is pretty much nothing but a noun and a role, so he's walking the line between canon character and OC. But if he was Itachi's best friend, someone Itachi chose and not someone forced on him by the hazards of birth or a colleague, there had to be something in him that Itachi approved of.


Fanon Relationships

Writing viable relationships with Itachi is very challenging, partly because he's so aloof and professional, but mostly because he's set up as one of the main villains of the story. With any character coming from the Leaf village, betrayal issues cannot be brushed aside. On top of that, there are specific issues with many of the main fan favorites that need to be adressed. And as with all relationships with Itachi not born out of mutual trust and professional respect, desperate, passion-and-pain-filled affairs are a whole hell of a lot more likely than happily-ever-afters.

Please see Uchiha Itachi is NOT Uchiha Sasuke v 2.0 against the common OOC pitfall of redeemed through love!Itachi. There are some very insightful comment threads in there. Also, many thanks to [livejournal.com profile] ew_younerd for the analysis I'm expanding on. (I stole a few shiny sentences, I hope that's alright. XD)


-ItaSaku: Itachi is not a nurturing person, so he wouldn't coddle Sakura. Sakura "has a desperate need to feel wanted and useful and strong", so getting that from Itachi would be quite wearying in the long-term.

Post-timeskip Sakura is physically and mentally strong enough to meet Itachi's expectations, get his respect and keep his interest, if she keeps her emotional weaknesses in check. She's shaping up to be an amazing, gifted Kunoichi, and her rise in power and attitude in battle in only two years and a half was amazing. She is the Hokage's apprentice; that's not nothing. In canon settings, the main pitfall comes from Sakura herself. Sakura was in love with Sasuke, a love that bordered on unhealthy obsession. It doesn't mean that she cannot fall out of love with him; but it means that if ever she falls in love with the man who broke the boy she loved -- and her teammate, one of her precious people even without romance in the middle -- she will feel incredibly guilty and dirty for doing that to him. Besides, Itachi murdered his whole family for personal gain; I don't see her condoning that. It doesn't mean she can't love him despite it; but it does mean that loving him will hurt her, and I'm not sure she'll ever make her peace with it without also losing some of her personal sense of self-worth. The issue cannot be hand-waved away if the fic is to keep a modicum of believability.

-ItaHina: Itachi is not a nurturing person, so he wouldn't coddle Hinata either.
Hinata has potential to be strong, though she is no genius material, but if she doesn't get rid of her hesitation and paralyzing shyness, he will see her as a non-entity, not worth bothering with. Even if she were to get rid of her shyness, she's a quiet, reserved, non-confrontational person. She also needs approval and pride in her abilities; Itachi might give her affirmation if she finally manages to use her bloodline to the best of her abilities, but he won't bother to reassure her when she worries. Also, "She could, with her emotional nature, be easily frightened by him but form a well-written Stockholm Syndrome, I suppose, but why would he be attracted to her at all?"

-ItaNaru: Naruto doesn't require coddling, so he already has one up on Sakura and Hinata. The problem here is that their only two connecting points are 1) Itachi's organization wants to cut open Naruto and extract his demon (Itachi doesn't seem to mind, and is quite professional and detached about the whole thing) and 2) Itachi mindfucked and betrayed one of Naruto's precious people (which Naruto is not going to forgive, like, EVER. Or at least not before Sasuke himself does, which... doesn't seem all that likely.) Naruto is definitely strong and determined enough to eventually garner some approval from Itachi, though his loud and unthinking behavior might put him off; but Naruto's moral compass and his drive to protect weaker people are way too strong to be ignored easily.
AUs where either Itachi didn't kill the Uchihas or Naruto was found at a younger age might work -- like Haku and Kimimaro proved, when you're lonely enough, it doesn't matter if your important person isn't a good person. There's also possibility with a kyuubified version of Naruto, because it would be ruthless, less obnoxiously boisterous, and probably a lot less bothered by mass murder. On Itachi's part, he does seem annoyed at persistent reminders that someone else is going to capture Naruto -- though that's probably due to professional pride, not to any personal interest -- and there seems to be a possible connection between Kyuubi and Uchiha Madara that might be stretched to include him, but Canon isn't far enough yet to say anything.

-Itachi/Gaara/Neji/Kakashi/any other introverted, focused, calm male: "Depending on the moral system of the partner, it could work as a great 'partnership with sexual benefits' for a while." But.

---ItaGaara: "Gaara has a need to be needed and loved, too. Because he is only grasping and comprehending what love is, at the moment, I'm sure Itachi could manipulate that and twist Gaara's expectations." After all, when you're lonely enough, it doesn't matter if your precious person is evil, and Gaara's morals were more than elastic enough before he decided to model himself after Naruto.

---ItaKaka: Kakashi is an incredibly tricky and resourceful ninja, with an impressive array of skills. Itachi definitely doesn't hold him in contempt. Something might be possible when they were still in ANBU together; Kakashi has Obito's eye, which might interest Itachi -- he might want to see if a non-Uchiha can do more with one Sharingan than a born Uchiha with two. Likewise, Kakashi might be intrigued by the youngest ANBU after him and one of his old teammate's clan and might seek to learn more about the Uchiha through him, even though Obito was the antithesis of everything Itachi is. But in the end, Kakashi is a very moral person who places his teammates and friends even before the rules and the mission, whereas to Itachi the end justifies the means and then some; and I can't see either of them agreeing to the other one's view. The issue has to be present in the pairing. In current timeline, neither of them would ever go farther than "alright, he has a nice ass", because even if they DID fall in love, the first thing they'd do in bed would be to try to kill each other kunoichi-style.

---ItaNeji: Neji is a bloodline-bearing genius who works hard at maintaining his edge, calm, competent, highly professional. Itachi might approve of his attitude and personality. But "Neji shows admiration for people with higher morals such as Naruto, and has shown that underneath the calm, erudite and critical genius personality he has strong emotions, + his childhood attachment to his father and his simultaneous needs to probably be left alone/not suffocated in a relationship but also be cared for", so unless he "changed inwardly drastically, I don't see either of them (canonly) would fit each other's needs (what 'needs' would Itachi have, anyways? Seems like he'd have a list of dealbreakers rather than dealmakers)." (T_T bbbut I love ItaNeji. But yeah.)

-Original Characters: There's a lot more leeway there, and you might even bypass the whole "omigod he's a mass murderer traitor from my village/my allies' village" thing by making the character affiliated with another country or organization. I believe I already outlined what kind of thing he'd be looking for in a partner (strong-willed, mature and competent are the main selling points), so I'll just remind people that a crazily bouncing girl trying to tackleglomp him would likely receive a sword through the gut before she can velcro herself to his side, and leave it at that. XD



I tried to get into the rationale of popular pure-fanon Itachi pairings, like ItaSaku, ItaHina and ItaNaru, but I'm having a hard time with it. XD; if you can correct my analysis and back it up intelligently, I will seriously owe you. (plz no bashing of the pairings themselves; I'm sure some people have valid reasons to like these pairings that aren't "well, Itachi is hot, evil is sexy, and I like to Mary-Sue myself into Sakura/Hinata/Naruto-chanchan.")

Also, anyone up for explaining Itachi/Kurenai to me? I'm afraid I really haven't thought about Kurenai at all much, so I have no clue at all how this would work. She's pretty calm and collected, and hey, jounin = competent, but... Hm. Itachi beat her so easily, and what would she see in him? (let us ignore the Asuma issue for now plz)


edit: You can stop reccing Loophole to me, people. XD I tried it, and, well, I'm not much into bodice rippers so maybe that's why I couldn't get into it. XD; That or I like to nitpick. Overall it was very well-written, but I can't say it was entirely IC either. It was like barely one step aside from IC, and I couldn't quite buy into the premises, and, well. I like to nitpick. u.u;;;

T_T *pets poor mistreated Kisame* *from afar*
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[identity profile] meritjubet.livejournal.com 2007-01-04 04:31 am (UTC)(link)
The idea of romance and Itachi is creepy to me. It's nearly impossible for me to imagine giving someone flowers.

Um, Itachi/Hinata maybe because they were both heirs to great clans and therefore were betrothed and - it's a lot like Sasuke/Hinata it seems, except much darker. For Itachi/Sakura, ah, Sasuke's team member might make Sasuke hate Itachi more? Sakura or Naruto, I can't ever see falling in love with Itachi. Itachi/Naruto *ponders* Itachi is attracted to power? I suppose because no one has been actively suggested to go with Itachi people choose their favourite characters to go with him. *shrugs* I don't ship those pairings, so I'm only guessing :P

[identity profile] iiangel-eyesii.livejournal.com 2007-01-04 04:52 am (UTC)(link)
The closest I have come to understanding Itaxsaku was through Leafygirl's "Loophole" and "Genshi" (You should check it out. Maybe I will help?(maybe not?)). Other than that, i'm at a loss just as you are.
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[identity profile] bootoye.livejournal.com 2007-01-04 05:03 am (UTC)(link)
What about Orochimaru/Itachi?

There is an explosive mixture which has enough canon basis to happen - circumstance could be very interesting considering that Orochi finds Itachi to be a little too powerful for him...but he wasn't always so!!^^

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[identity profile] bootoye.livejournal.com - 2007-01-04 19:58 (UTC) - Expand

[identity profile] purple-alicorn.livejournal.com 2007-01-04 05:09 am (UTC)(link)
I can see Itachi with Sakura and/or Naruto *if* they become more important to Sasuke than and, for some reason, he can't kill them and he wants to become the centre of attention for Sasuke again by destorying the relationship/mindf#$king with Sasuke/possibly getting information on Sasuke.

Likewise I can see Team 7 doing it (a) under illusion, (b) to get information/bering sasuke back/helping sasuke kill him - but I can only see then in a realtionship in a very f#$ked up, twisted dark world :>

[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/_daffodils/ 2007-01-04 05:16 am (UTC)(link)
Actually, I read a pretty good ItaSaku once, Loophole (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2430922/1/). It somehow made the pairing plausible to me, but I don't remember enough about it to explain how. I also read an ItaNaru I liked, This Place is a Prison (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2660222/1/), though in that one, Naruto was captured by Akatsuki and his personality was affected accordingly.

Besides those two, I don't think I've ever read a "romance" fic featuring Itachi that I deemed believable in any way. But then again, I've been pretty well out of the fanfiction loop for quite a while. And being that they're on ff.net, it's quite possible you've already run across them. D:

[identity profile] bakkhos.livejournal.com 2007-01-04 05:23 am (UTC)(link)
*mems like whoa* What, you didn't expect me to comment? :P

Seriously, this is great. I agree with most of your "What we know of Itachi" section, though with this:
he showed Sasuke more care than he strictly would have needed to show in order to stay under the radar
I don't think he did this to stay under the radar. Why would he? All of his other actions were outrageously troubling. He didn't seem to give a shit if someone was suspicious of him. In other words, I think he truly cared for Sasuke.

Even if he has strong, lasting feelings, they don't count as much as his goals to him.
I'd say the two do not necessarily have to be mutually exclusive.

The Right Personality
Yes, yes, yes, and more yes. I can't see him respecting anyone weaker than him. They'd have to be a challenge, or strong in areas that he is not (well, not strong in the empathy department, anyway).

Physical Attraction
or the kind who's willing to spend a half-hour with some random prostitute when he isn't busy with a mission.
Personally, I don't think he would show that type of vulnerability to anyone he didn't trust. Even if it is the roughest sex in the world, it's still an intimate experience between two people. Itachi would never be caught with his pants guard down. Never. Prostitutes would lay him open to the possibility of disease, danger or death (imagine if someone found out he regularly slept with prostitues. They could use him as Itachi used that girl to seduce Jiraiya.)

His body is a weapon that he uses to get to his goals
I wonder if he would use his body sexually to achieve his goals. Interesting possibility.

As for being a rapist, that seems a lot of effort for little payoff. Rapists are generally insecure, angry people who feel the need to dominate and violate someone to prove to themselves that they're in control and really not as weak or pitiful as they feel. Itachi doesn't need to make himself feel stronger than some random chick, he's already stronger than most everyone he knows and perfectly confident in that fact.
*worships you* You have no idea how much I dislike Rapist!Itachi, and it's for this very reason, which you articulated very well.

But he wouldn't be so overcome with lust that he would put himself even slightly at risk just to get someone in his bed.
Er, but rapists don't rape because they're overwhelmed with lust. It's for the reason you stated above. And Itachi is not a sadist.

As for Akatsuki, I can't imagine him with anyone except Kisame. They just compliment each other perfectly.

I agree with everything else, though I do have some ItaNaru fans on my f-list who could provide reasons why they think this is possible.

GREAT META.

Itachi Kunoichi style

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[identity profile] bakkhos.livejournal.com - 2007-01-04 20:10 (UTC) - Expand

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[identity profile] windup-boytoy.livejournal.com 2007-01-04 05:44 am (UTC)(link)
... I still say Shisui/Itachi.

:Db

[identity profile] ari-02.livejournal.com 2007-01-04 05:59 am (UTC)(link)
This hits so many facets so perfectly for what little is actually known about Itachi. It is always so bloody hard finding good with him actually IC AND done so that the pairing isn’t so much ‘WTF where the hell did that come from?!?’

If I may, in case argument for the ItaSaku argument…

LeafyGirl (http://www.fanfiction.net/u/588480/)

Again, Loophole (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2430922/1/) and Genshi (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2925965/1/) are wonderful


MitsukiShiroi (http://www.fanfiction.net/u/577994/)

Her ongoing trilogy of Metamorphosis (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2633721/1/), Evolution (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2756667/1/) & Salvation (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2968527/1/) is just about
complete, but an amazing example of ItaSaku.

[identity profile] valles-uf.livejournal.com 2007-01-04 06:02 am (UTC)(link)
Overall, I'd have to say I disagree, at least about your reasoning.

While the emotional disconnection we see him display would suit quite well to antisocial personality disorder, the rest of his personality is about as far off as can be. He's too self-controlled, too calm, and most of all, too consistent.

I'll freely admit, though, that those things could just as easily be due to his background having trained him in how to maintain himself against his natural instincts.

What I actually think is going on is a combination of a sort of a superiority complex, where his training allowed him to recognize that, no, he actually wasn't All That, and then to do something about it, with a general disregard for human life and a reliance on the regard of another for validation.

I think that it was very, very significant that Itachi's real decline seemed to kick off after Sasuke started to get some recognition from their father.

Before the massacre, there was a danger of Sasuke's drifting away from him, which threatened to shift his, mm, anchor point to the universe, to take away the attention of his most precious person. After, no matter what happened from then on, he would always be the most important person in Sasuke's life.

The implications that has for his romantic prospects... don't really interest me that much. My interest in a scorpion's love life extends only as far as helps me squash the little monster.

Then again, I doubt you'd find Yuuki Nao anywhere near as compelling as I do, so I really should be casting any stones, that way.

Ja, -n

--from dragonsquee

[identity profile] a-white-rain.livejournal.com 2007-01-04 06:31 am (UTC)(link)
Well, I can only see ItaSaku, ItaNaru and ItaHina being about Sasuke. the first two are clear, and once, while bored, I came up with the idea that Itachi may have meet Hinata before he killed his clan, was reminded of Sasuke in some areas, and was attracted or something because he was attracted in some way to Sasuke.

That's about the only sane reason I can see for liking ItaHina. Even more so when you've got Gaara, Sasuke, Neji and others to fill up the pretty slot imo.

[identity profile] animeprincess.livejournal.com 2007-01-04 06:59 am (UTC)(link)
*snerk* Why am I seeing Itachi's version of "romance" being nearly killing someone? Am I nuts? Or just tired cause I have to be up in ...oooh...3 hours? hahahahaha.

*20$ on the nightstand dances in my braiiiiiins*

[identity profile] icedark-elf.livejournal.com 2007-01-04 07:27 am (UTC)(link)
*is reading this like whoa, as has been given fic challenge of Itachi/Sakura/Naruto/Sasuke*

So far, it's looking like lots of mental breakage, lots more mental breakage, even more mental breakage, some kind of mental dependancy on Itachi, and just physically breaking people.

Lots of work, and the main reason Itachi was doing it was because then he'd have a set of well trained, extremely powerful ninja who follow his lead, and his goal involves eventual take over of things he probably shouldn't. >.>

Sooo going to keep reading this to get the character down.

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[identity profile] icedark-elf.livejournal.com - 2007-01-04 08:07 (UTC) - Expand

[identity profile] maxxim-huzzah.livejournal.com 2007-01-04 07:54 am (UTC)(link)
*in from [livejournal.com profile] bakkhos's linking* Word AND WORD. There's lots of holes in his personality where things like empathy and pity normally exist.

He needs someone who can meet his impossibly high standards--or be willing to throw everything to the wind to try, like Sasuke does. It makes writing his character very frustrating!

Kudos to you for tackling this meta! ♥

(Anonymous) 2007-01-04 08:17 am (UTC)(link)
Before doing some thinking about it in response to this essay, I figured if Itachi was going to sleep with anyone, it would be Kisame for the reasons listed above.

But Kisame falls into the category of a ninja that could conceivably kill (or at least seriously injure) Itachi. I doubt that Itachi would see that as a plus: it would be too dangerous to even slightly lower his guard around Kisame, whereas it might be permissible for some random (weak) prostitute.

Plus, shark skin? Like sand paper.

There are limits.

-- Guile

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(Anonymous) - 2007-01-19 05:42 (UTC) - Expand

[identity profile] gothicstargrl.livejournal.com 2007-01-04 08:33 am (UTC)(link)
(And this time, without the CTRL+V fail. *headdesks unto eternity*)

(While Itachi seems to care and think about Sasuke a lot less than Sasuke thinks about Itachi, he still would be quite miffed if the center of Sasuke's world became something else. He took a lot of pain to establish himself as Sasuke's only goal and driving force.)

!!! So that's why Itachi was giving me Protective Big Brother vibes in the female!Sasuke universe! HA! It is sense-making at last. XD *hurries off to write this down, because THE BUNNY LIVES AGAIN*

Also, while I rather dislike Itachi unless referring to him as Weaselboy means I sekritly love him or something, this makes so much sense. It's just--wow. That's more insight into his head than I'll ever get. ♥

[identity profile] annwyd.livejournal.com 2007-01-04 10:07 am (UTC)(link)
...buh. How did I miss this post? Mmm, delicious meta.

You make a lot of good points about Itachi (which the fandom cheerfully ignores). Personally, I don't find him remotely interesting outside of his relationship with Sasuke and what he says about how messed up the shinobi world is (yay, putting a potentially unstable thirteen-year-old into ANBU!...whoops). Without that, he's really just a garden-variety sociopath. :P And yet it seems like the Sasuke-less "sexy evil guy who gets his heart melted" is the version of him that fandom likes best.

To be honest, I can't see him having a true romance with anybody. He just doesn't have the capacity for emotion of any depth with anyone other than Sasuke, and that...would not be a romance (although it could be sexual). If I push and prod enough, I can see him getting involved in some way with Kisame or another Akatsuki member. I can see him having a non-Sasuke-based relationship with Kakashi, built around his irritation at there being another Sharingan user out there--but I can't see it turning romantic or even sexual.

I can also see Itachi getting involved with Team 7 in order to get at Sasuke, but that would be about Sasuke, not about them. Besides, Naruto wouldn't stand for it. Sakura, who seems to have a more flexible moral compass than Naruto, might, but even if she came to see Itachi as a person in his own right rather than a loathsome means of getting to Sasuke, she'd still hate him. (I actually have an Ita[Sasu]Saku idea involving Orochimaru taking over Sasuke's body. In order to pull Sasuke back into control of his own body before he's swallowed up forever in Orochimaru's mind, Itachi inserts himself into Team 7 in a grotesque, dark way, and then he shows that to Sasuke. Sakura goes along because she's desperate and not willing to give up on Sasuke just yet, but it turns out to be a Really Bad Idea.)

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[identity profile] annwyd.livejournal.com - 2007-01-04 23:08 (UTC) - Expand

[identity profile] nakatani-yuushi.livejournal.com 2007-01-04 11:45 am (UTC)(link)
Don't have much to add, just want to say that I love this. <3 And I agree about Kisame, too. OTP, yes. *cough* xD

[identity profile] ex-hitokiri.livejournal.com 2007-01-04 03:15 pm (UTC)(link)
Romance with Itachi:

-Ahahahahahano.


...nicely put >_>

[identity profile] jaklover.livejournal.com 2007-01-04 03:34 pm (UTC)(link)
It's SO HARD to imagine Itachi with Romance!....Actually, now I don't really want to imagine it. AH! Scary images! *runs away*

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[identity profile] jaklover.livejournal.com - 2007-01-05 00:31 (UTC) - Expand

[identity profile] joyinthedance.livejournal.com 2007-01-04 05:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Superb analysis. I'm totally keeping this in my memoriess for reference during my lame attempts to write him. ^^

[identity profile] elict.livejournal.com 2007-01-04 05:54 pm (UTC)(link)
They have to be dedicated to make themselves into everything they can be.

...



That aside; wonderful analysis. Meming, and trying not to snicker at how much all of the descriptions for how Itachi's supposed partner fits on Neji. *whistles innocently*

[identity profile] teruame.livejournal.com 2007-01-04 08:14 pm (UTC)(link)
I think I'm going to stack this into my memories =D You just nailed everything about Itachi that people need to know about him.

Romance with Itachi:

-Ahahahahahano.


-LOL- Many thumbs up for saying that.

-Should have potential. Should be trying their best to realize their potential. (reminder, Itachi's expectations of what "best" entails are insanely high.)

Precisely. Otherwise, the person is a goner (and that's in any kind of bond that Itachi would have =/)

I tried to get into the rationale of popular pure-fanon Itachi pairings, like ItaSaku, ItaHina and ItaNaru, but I'm afraid I can't wrap my mind around it. XD

XDDD Neither can I. -fangirl crowd protests-

Anyone up for explaining the way any of these pairings would work IC for me? (plz no bashing of the pairings themselves; I'm sure some people have valid reasons to like these pairings that aren't "well, Itachi is hot, evil is sexy, and I like to Mary-Sue myself into Sakura/Hinata/Naruto-chanchan.")

Er, the only reason I can come up with for any kind of fascination with these pairings is just how twisted and dark they are. Sane fans of these couples would like them precisely because of the twisted nature of it all. =3

The only not-so-twisted ItaSaku fanfic I know that was remotely in-character (yes, remotely) is "Loophole" by leafygirl, but I don't think that it quite captured Itachi the way he should have been...and there's only one non-twisted ItaHina fanfic I know as worth mentioning to anyone ("Uchiha and Hyuga" by yvie), but the author assumed that 10-year-old Itachi wasn't as cruel as his 13-year-old counterpart. Thus, I doubt that this fanfic was decently in-character, either.

(Anonymous) 2007-01-04 08:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Rapists are generally insecure, angry people who feel the need to dominate and violate someone to prove to themselves that they're in control and really not as weak or pitiful as they feel. Itachi doesn't need to make himself feel stronger than some random chick, he's already stronger than most everyone he knows and perfectly confident in that fact.

Here, here, and thank you very much for saying it so nicely. In addition, rape tends to be tied into gender roles and notions about male dominance/female submission, which I cannot ever see Itachi having a problem with. It doesn't matter if you are a man, a woman, a rock, a shrub, or a pink hippo with purple polka-dots. Chances are, you are weaker than Itachi, and he knows it.

If the person were right under his nose, and vulnerable, and they could not in all likelihood retaliate, I could possibly see him raping them, because it would be easy and safe and he really doesn't care what they feel.

I honestly couldn't even see it then. Itachi seems too self-reliant to admit to wanting someone so weak in that way. He strikes me as someone who's never had a sexual encounter with anyone/thing other than his hand (both, if he's feeling kinky... ;D)

After all the trouble he went to eradicate the Uchiha clan, he would not be stupid enough to knock up a girl.

I disagree. Personal views on Itachi's sexuality aside, I really don't see Itachi caring all that much about whether or not the Uchiha clan continues. As you said, he killed his family and extended family because he wanted to test himself and they had become weak and complacent. There is nothing to say he wanted to wipe the Uchiha blood-line out completely. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary: Sasuke. If Itachi wanted the Uchiha clan gone entirely, he would have killed his little brother, softer emotions be damned. After all: Even if he has strong, lasting feelings, they don't count as much as his goals to him.

There's my two cents. XD

Adi

[identity profile] book-people.livejournal.com 2007-01-04 08:24 pm (UTC)(link)
...That was me. *face-palm*

Adi

[identity profile] super-tricie341.livejournal.com 2007-01-05 02:40 am (UTC)(link)
I'm going to second (or third? fourth? ^^;) the recs for Leafygirl's "Loophole". The second arc dragged, and I had a few quibbles with the characterization, but it was an enjoyable read overall. Personally, I didn't enjoy its sequel, "Genshi", as much. I still say give it a shot though. She's an excellent writer.

I haven't read anything by MitsukiShiroi, though I have it on good authority that her characterization is top-notch.

I don't care much for Itachi, so I don't read too many fics about him. The only other (readable) ItaSaku I've seen is Tea Leaf's Hindsight's 20/20 (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1862739/1/), which is unfortunately incomplete. I'm not sure that you'll like it, as it might hit a number of your fic peeves but anyhoo...it's a High School AU, and before you run away screaming, I'll assure you that it's nothing like the other High School AUs you've probably come across or heard about. It's very, very dark and Sakura's pretty twisted (which makes sense considering her background in the AU). From what I remember, the fic is more Sakura-centric than it is ItaSaku. In any case, if you aren't scared off by now, I recommend trying it. Her Itachi is excellent, though you might be a little thrown off by her Sakura.

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