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naruto meta babble -- Sasuke
I know a couple of people wanted me to babble on the latest naruto chapter but I don't have a lot of things to say except RAW MUSCLES!! and OMGNEXTCHAPTERNOW. Sorry sorry. >___>;;
So instead, since I'm so knackered my ass is gonna stay parked on that chair for a while anyway, I'm gonna waste the rest of my afternoon doing an essay on why Sasuke does not have to die to redeem himself and why he isn't evil. (or not eviler than he was when he refused to kill Naruto for power, at least.)
What does Sasuke have to atone for?
-Putting his fist through Naruto's chest. (For a good part of the fight Naruto was trying to do the same but hey.)
-Going AWOL from Konoha.
-Learning techniques from a known enemy of Konoha.
What does Sasuke not have to atone for?
-Killing people. Innocent people, random people, ex-best friends -- hell, even enemies. He doesn't kill.
-As far as we can tell, going on bad/warmongering missions for the Sound.
(maybe he went to pick rose petals for Oro's bed! Or washed truckloads of dishes. Who knows. He didn't go and ninja in the night for Sound supremacy) or giving intel that allowed Orochimaru or Madara to cause harm to Konoha. It would be an important, damning fact, another turn on the downward spiral to ~*darkness*~. If it had happened, we would have seen it in the manga. It's not the kind of thing Kishimoto would spring on us 200 chapters after the fact.
Sasuke is meant to be on the bad guys side at first glance but still honorable at a second glance -- Kishi wouldn't add a "but actually he was making evil decisions from the start" on third look, that's just too zigzaggy. He took from Orochimaru -- new jutsu, enhancing drugs, snake summons -- but he doesn't seem to have given anything back, apart from the promise of his body, which he never made good on. (Sasuke, you goddamn cocktease.)
-Getting contaminated by Orochimaru's "Me Me Me" ideology. He's a very justice/revenge based character, always has been, still is, and has stated and acted on his belief that someone who uses and manipulates others just to coast on their stolen strength with no regard for their lives disgusts him. Using drugs and the curse seal to augment his own strength? He could do it. But he refused to kill Naruto even though that would bring him great power, and the way Orochimaru wanted to steal someone else's power was just too much. (... isn't it strange how he isn't saying anything about Akatsuki's quest for bijuu then. HMMM.)
-Getting contaminated by Madara's "I didn't get to be Hokage and beloved by my clan so everyone should die but I'll pretend rather transparently it was really only about my little brother's sacrifice and by the way I'm not saying 'what man would willingly harm his little brother?' just because it pushes your own buttons" ideology. No, really. Because...
What Sasuke often does:
He lies like a rug.
Let's see what kind of precedent there is to the whole "Yeah, Madara-chan, I'm with you 150 percent! Let's kill those evil mean peoples."
HAHAHA yeah right.
Turns out he never intended to hand his body over and let anyone else kill Itachi, because it was his duty and he'd never entrust that to an outsider, especially such an amoral one. He probably knew Orochimaru was close enough to hear and he wasn't stupid enough to tell them "aw stop nagging already, he won't get me because I already plan to kill him first." I mean Orochimaru probably suspected it might be the case, but there's a difference between playing with fire and jumping into a volcano with your eyes wide open.
(I like to think Sasuke also lied to team Seven because he wanted to discourage them from risking themselves by coming after him, because he might have to plunge into darkness to reach his goal but there was no reason to drag them along. So far, since all I have for it is Sasuke refusing to let Sakura come with him which might be not wanting to dirty/destroy her or might be not wanting to deal with the hassle, it's more faith than manga-based fact, alas.So far.)
So when Madara is all "And more importantly, I have won Sasuke over" just because Sasuke told him so... ahaha, that's what Oro-chan thought too, honey.
What happens:
Chapter 401, Madara tells Sasuke he WAS responsible for the first Kyuubi attack because he was pissy about the village, but the second was a complete coincidence, and therefore he was for nothing in Kyuubi's attack on Konoha that resulted in the Uchiha being discriminated against which led to the rebellion Itachi had to kill them for. ... Itachi had just told Sasuke that Madara was responsible. Who would he trust the most?
Chapter 402, still reeling from the revelations, Sasuke says in front of Madara AND team Hebi that their goal is now to crush Konoha.
Chapter 404, Sasuke tells the Hawks and Akatsuki that he only plans to go after the Konoha leaders anyway.
Anyone in canon managed to change Sasuke's mind once it was made? Kakashi tried to get him to stay home. He didn't manage. Sakura tried. Naruto tried. They all failed. Orochimaru probably tried his hardest to convince Sasuke he couldn't beat Itachi on his own, but perhaps if they were two in one body they'd succeed and that was why he needed to hand himself over. Did Sasuke listen? Fuck no.
Chapter 416, Sasuke tells Madara he would rather destroy the village that killed Itachi than respect what Itachi wanted to protect, and that he lied in front of Team Hawk about only wanting to kill the elders. "I want revenge on them all!". You can't see his eyes for the whole page they discuss it. What does Kishimoto do every time he wants to showcase an emotion or a moment of determination? He does close-ups on the eyes and face. What does he do when he wants someone to hide their feelings? He hide their face behind their hanging hair or cuts the frame so we don't see it.
Especially since when you look at the border of the pages -- black indicates a flashback. That discussion where Sasuke tells Madara he'll destroy Konoha happens after the discussion where he tells his team hawk he'll go after the elders who ordered Itachi to his ignominy, exile, and death. Then he goes and has a flashback comparing his Hawks to team Seven, which shows both that he remembers loving/trusting Team Seven (therefore he doesn't hate the village as a whole) and that he has also come to love/trust Karin, Juugo and Suigetsu.
Who would he have a better reason to lie to? His personal squad, who follow him because... um... Pretty much because they like him / want to see how far he'll go, and just happen to have a couple of errands they might as well run on the way? Who have no reason to give a damn about Konoha one way or another, have no problem killing people they don't know (at least Karin and Suigetsu don't), and just joined Akatsuki because Sasuke told them to? Or some mysterious clan elder with genocidal thoughts whom Sasuke's beloved older brother boobytrapped Sasuke to kill? Who is Sasuke more likely to exaggerate for, who is he more likely to trust?
Yeah, sorry Madara, I don't think so. What you got was pretty much just lip service.
Considering his behavior all along the series and the fact he's been known to lie convincingly to megalomaniacs when that'll get him closer to things he wants, it's a pretty sure bet Sasuke never intended to destroy Konoha, kill civilians, kill innocents, kill interlopers, or pretty much kill anyone ... but the elders who started that mess with his clan and his brother in the first place.
And since the elders and especially Danzou have been depicted as crooked and warmongering? they're as good as gone and if Sasuke is the one who gets to get rid of them then it will be depicted as a well-deserved death. (IF -- they might also get a karmic accidental death/suicide/Madara killination, who knows, Sasuke still has his "no kill" thing and who knows when/if he'll break it. After all killing Itachi was his goal of a lifetime at some point and in the end he didn't get to.)
Morality in Naruto
Gaara was a serial killer who killed in reaction to his hate and loneliness. He became Kazekage to protect his village, died for them, and for that sacrifice he was brought back to life. Sasuke has not killed anyone. (... which is why it's important that Sasuke let Killer Bee go deliberately -- it doesn't make sense that he didn't considering his track record so far, so if Kishi drops the ball on this and goes "oh it didn't happen so the intent doesn't matter, Sasuke is still technically not a selfish killer" I'll be really WTF. But, I don't think it'll happen.)
CONCLUSION:
Sasuke is all talk.
In real life Sasuke probably would be executed for treason, but considering the story genre? He does not need to give his life to redeem himself because he has never taken any.
The origin of his new powers does not matter half as much as what he uses those powers for -- see Naruto being told to learn to harness Kyuubi's power. (also apparently all his lightning techniques came from himself, improving on Kakashi's techniques, and not from Orochimaru, anyway.)
He DID get rid of Orochimaru who has been a thorn in Konoha's side for a while now, as well as (kind of) two Akatsuki.
Am I trying to say there should be no consequences to his actions? No.
He probably needs to risk his life for the village/his old teammates so he'll show his true loyalties and prove himself useful enough be officially forgiven for being AWOL. He probably needs to get a beatdown from Naruto and hopefully Sakura (I'm sure they already forgave him for Naruto's physical wounds and leaving Sakura behind on that bench, but he'd still deserve it for the emotional turmoil he put them through and besides he wouldn't stop being a stubborn ass otherwise) or, in some other way, show that he truly regrets/still thinks of them as loved ones. He probably needs to get damn close to dying to regain sympathetic points...
But in the end, in Narutoverse terms, he just hasn't accumulated enough bad karma that nothing short of death would redeem him.
Also, Naruto's only been clamoring that he won't become Hokage if he can't save Sasuke, and we all know he'll become Hokage by the end of the manga, no question about it. >___> [/argument]
Team Seven is the team that will get it right -- Team Sannin exploded because Tsunade was too wrapped up in her grief for her brother and lover to care about her teammates and ran away from her responsibilities, and Oro was twisted from the start, and Jiraiya gave up on him and never felt afterwards that he measured up to / deserved to be Hokage; and of team Yondaime there's only Kakashi left (if that much nowadays). Team Seven will get it right. They'll save Sasuke from his darkness because he's not evil, he's lost; Sakura will protect/support her teammates like Tsunade never did; and Naruto will never give up.
Also, if he dies I'll have to make Naruto and Sakura necrophiliacs. >_>;;
So instead, since I'm so knackered my ass is gonna stay parked on that chair for a while anyway, I'm gonna waste the rest of my afternoon doing an essay on why Sasuke does not have to die to redeem himself and why he isn't evil. (or not eviler than he was when he refused to kill Naruto for power, at least.)
What does Sasuke have to atone for?
-Putting his fist through Naruto's chest. (For a good part of the fight Naruto was trying to do the same but hey.)
-Going AWOL from Konoha.
-Learning techniques from a known enemy of Konoha.
What does Sasuke not have to atone for?
-Killing people. Innocent people, random people, ex-best friends -- hell, even enemies. He doesn't kill.
¤ Orochimaru complains that even in a melee of a bazilion Sound Nins trying their best to shish kebob him, Sasuke finds a way to beat them all without killing a single one. Pretty sure bet that attitude isn't new, most likely he hasn't killed anyone since the Valley of the End.
¤ He doesn't really kill Orochimaru, he absorbs him. [This one is the iffiest because the end result is quite similar and Sasuke did attack first with the intent of dispatching him; but from another angle of view he knew in the end only him or Orochimaru would walk away alive, so it was kind of proactive self-defense. (also Orochimaru is portrayed as a somewhat despicable enemy who apparently doesn't deserve a noble one-on-one. >.>;; That's more of a meta reason than an in-universe reason though.)]
¤ Deidara killed himself; Sasuke just wanted info and would have let him go since he couldn't care less about Deidara as a person.
¤ Doesn't even let Suigetsu kill people -- he could just say "I won't kill, but you can do whatever you want"; instead he takes responsibility for Suigetsu's behavior.
¤ Itachi was terminally sick and knew it when he started the fight; he keeled over from exhaustion.
¤ Killer Bee escaped safe and sound (though I have to believe that Sasuke actually KNEW the Killer Bee they handed over to be de-bijuu'd was a fake, because if he didn't he would only be innocent of murder on a technicality. I just can't see the Sasuke who said he would do it all on his own actually not care that he's grabbing some random (granted, annoying) guy from the street just to get more power. It wouldn't be consistent.)
-As far as we can tell, going on bad/warmongering missions for the Sound.
(maybe he went to pick rose petals for Oro's bed! Or washed truckloads of dishes. Who knows. He didn't go and ninja in the night for Sound supremacy) or giving intel that allowed Orochimaru or Madara to cause harm to Konoha. It would be an important, damning fact, another turn on the downward spiral to ~*darkness*~. If it had happened, we would have seen it in the manga. It's not the kind of thing Kishimoto would spring on us 200 chapters after the fact.
Sasuke is meant to be on the bad guys side at first glance but still honorable at a second glance -- Kishi wouldn't add a "but actually he was making evil decisions from the start" on third look, that's just too zigzaggy. He took from Orochimaru -- new jutsu, enhancing drugs, snake summons -- but he doesn't seem to have given anything back, apart from the promise of his body, which he never made good on. (Sasuke, you goddamn cocktease.)
-Getting contaminated by Orochimaru's "Me Me Me" ideology. He's a very justice/revenge based character, always has been, still is, and has stated and acted on his belief that someone who uses and manipulates others just to coast on their stolen strength with no regard for their lives disgusts him. Using drugs and the curse seal to augment his own strength? He could do it. But he refused to kill Naruto even though that would bring him great power, and the way Orochimaru wanted to steal someone else's power was just too much. (... isn't it strange how he isn't saying anything about Akatsuki's quest for bijuu then. HMMM.)
-Getting contaminated by Madara's "I didn't get to be Hokage and beloved by my clan so everyone should die but I'll pretend rather transparently it was really only about my little brother's sacrifice and by the way I'm not saying 'what man would willingly harm his little brother?' just because it pushes your own buttons" ideology. No, really. Because...
What Sasuke often does:
Let's see what kind of precedent there is to the whole "Yeah, Madara-chan, I'm with you 150 percent! Let's kill those evil mean peoples."
HAHAHA yeah right.
Turns out he never intended to hand his body over and let anyone else kill Itachi, because it was his duty and he'd never entrust that to an outsider, especially such an amoral one. He probably knew Orochimaru was close enough to hear and he wasn't stupid enough to tell them "aw stop nagging already, he won't get me because I already plan to kill him first." I mean Orochimaru probably suspected it might be the case, but there's a difference between playing with fire and jumping into a volcano with your eyes wide open.
(I like to think Sasuke also lied to team Seven because he wanted to discourage them from risking themselves by coming after him, because he might have to plunge into darkness to reach his goal but there was no reason to drag them along. So far, since all I have for it is Sasuke refusing to let Sakura come with him which might be not wanting to dirty/destroy her or might be not wanting to deal with the hassle, it's more faith than manga-based fact, alas.
So when Madara is all "And more importantly, I have won Sasuke over" just because Sasuke told him so... ahaha, that's what Oro-chan thought too, honey.
What happens:
Chapter 401, Madara tells Sasuke he WAS responsible for the first Kyuubi attack because he was pissy about the village, but the second was a complete coincidence, and therefore he was for nothing in Kyuubi's attack on Konoha that resulted in the Uchiha being discriminated against which led to the rebellion Itachi had to kill them for. ... Itachi had just told Sasuke that Madara was responsible. Who would he trust the most?
Chapter 402, still reeling from the revelations, Sasuke says in front of Madara AND team Hebi that their goal is now to crush Konoha.
Chapter 404, Sasuke tells the Hawks and Akatsuki that he only plans to go after the Konoha leaders anyway.
Anyone in canon managed to change Sasuke's mind once it was made? Kakashi tried to get him to stay home. He didn't manage. Sakura tried. Naruto tried. They all failed. Orochimaru probably tried his hardest to convince Sasuke he couldn't beat Itachi on his own, but perhaps if they were two in one body they'd succeed and that was why he needed to hand himself over. Did Sasuke listen? Fuck no.
Chapter 416, Sasuke tells Madara he would rather destroy the village that killed Itachi than respect what Itachi wanted to protect, and that he lied in front of Team Hawk about only wanting to kill the elders. "I want revenge on them all!". You can't see his eyes for the whole page they discuss it. What does Kishimoto do every time he wants to showcase an emotion or a moment of determination? He does close-ups on the eyes and face. What does he do when he wants someone to hide their feelings? He hide their face behind their hanging hair or cuts the frame so we don't see it.
Especially since when you look at the border of the pages -- black indicates a flashback. That discussion where Sasuke tells Madara he'll destroy Konoha happens after the discussion where he tells his team hawk he'll go after the elders who ordered Itachi to his ignominy, exile, and death. Then he goes and has a flashback comparing his Hawks to team Seven, which shows both that he remembers loving/trusting Team Seven (therefore he doesn't hate the village as a whole) and that he has also come to love/trust Karin, Juugo and Suigetsu.
Who would he have a better reason to lie to? His personal squad, who follow him because... um... Pretty much because they like him / want to see how far he'll go, and just happen to have a couple of errands they might as well run on the way? Who have no reason to give a damn about Konoha one way or another, have no problem killing people they don't know (at least Karin and Suigetsu don't), and just joined Akatsuki because Sasuke told them to? Or some mysterious clan elder with genocidal thoughts whom Sasuke's beloved older brother boobytrapped Sasuke to kill? Who is Sasuke more likely to exaggerate for, who is he more likely to trust?
Yeah, sorry Madara, I don't think so. What you got was pretty much just lip service.
Considering his behavior all along the series and the fact he's been known to lie convincingly to megalomaniacs when that'll get him closer to things he wants, it's a pretty sure bet Sasuke never intended to destroy Konoha, kill civilians, kill innocents, kill interlopers, or pretty much kill anyone ... but the elders who started that mess with his clan and his brother in the first place.
And since the elders and especially Danzou have been depicted as crooked and warmongering? they're as good as gone and if Sasuke is the one who gets to get rid of them then it will be depicted as a well-deserved death. (IF -- they might also get a karmic accidental death/suicide/Madara killination, who knows, Sasuke still has his "no kill" thing and who knows when/if he'll break it. After all killing Itachi was his goal of a lifetime at some point and in the end he didn't get to.)
Morality in Naruto
Gaara was a serial killer who killed in reaction to his hate and loneliness. He became Kazekage to protect his village, died for them, and for that sacrifice he was brought back to life. Sasuke has not killed anyone. (... which is why it's important that Sasuke let Killer Bee go deliberately -- it doesn't make sense that he didn't considering his track record so far, so if Kishi drops the ball on this and goes "oh it didn't happen so the intent doesn't matter, Sasuke is still technically not a selfish killer" I'll be really WTF. But, I don't think it'll happen.)
CONCLUSION:
In real life Sasuke probably would be executed for treason, but considering the story genre? He does not need to give his life to redeem himself because he has never taken any.
The origin of his new powers does not matter half as much as what he uses those powers for -- see Naruto being told to learn to harness Kyuubi's power. (also apparently all his lightning techniques came from himself, improving on Kakashi's techniques, and not from Orochimaru, anyway.)
He DID get rid of Orochimaru who has been a thorn in Konoha's side for a while now, as well as (kind of) two Akatsuki.
Am I trying to say there should be no consequences to his actions? No.
He probably needs to risk his life for the village/his old teammates so he'll show his true loyalties and prove himself useful enough be officially forgiven for being AWOL. He probably needs to get a beatdown from Naruto and hopefully Sakura (I'm sure they already forgave him for Naruto's physical wounds and leaving Sakura behind on that bench, but he'd still deserve it for the emotional turmoil he put them through and besides he wouldn't stop being a stubborn ass otherwise) or, in some other way, show that he truly regrets/still thinks of them as loved ones. He probably needs to get damn close to dying to regain sympathetic points...
But in the end, in Narutoverse terms, he just hasn't accumulated enough bad karma that nothing short of death would redeem him.
Also, Naruto's only been clamoring that he won't become Hokage if he can't save Sasuke, and we all know he'll become Hokage by the end of the manga, no question about it. >___> [/argument]
Team Seven is the team that will get it right -- Team Sannin exploded because Tsunade was too wrapped up in her grief for her brother and lover to care about her teammates and ran away from her responsibilities, and Oro was twisted from the start, and Jiraiya gave up on him and never felt afterwards that he measured up to / deserved to be Hokage; and of team Yondaime there's only Kakashi left (if that much nowadays). Team Seven will get it right. They'll save Sasuke from his darkness because he's not evil, he's lost; Sakura will protect/support her teammates like Tsunade never did; and Naruto will never give up.
Also, if he dies I'll have to make Naruto and Sakura necrophiliacs. >_>;;
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