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(HP/Naruto) Coils (the serious crossover :p)
Previous parts:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/reiyel/4041.html
1) this is a during-the-timeskip story. Sasuke is fifteen, and has been with the Sound for a little over two years.
2) this is situated after Harry Potter and the order of the Phoenix. There is no book six.
3) this is rather dark. And possibly evil. mmmmm. (come on, it's about Sound!Sasuke, Snape and Voldemort.)
I don't remember how far I posted before, so here's the whole scene. If there are parts that don't sound like Snape, or the HP stuff doesn't sound canon enough, please tell me.
(I'm particularly confused on the ways to break Legilimency and the physical effects of it -- I remember Harry throwing Snape around, unless I mix that up with fics, but is that directly due to the being thrown out of one's mind, or was there a spell used to break concentration/eye contact? Might have to edit a bit...)
It took four Petrificus Totalis before the boy would stop twitching. Bellatrix was all ready to throw in a fifth, but Voldemort stopped her. Severus was glad -- he didn't want to deal with the result of a heart attack, and definitely didn't feel like mouth to mouth resuscitation. It was already unexpected that the boy would still be breathing -- albeit shallowly -- on his own.
Snape took two men to carry him, and followed Wormtail to the chamber that had been prepared to hold the Dark Lord's vessel. He stood at the left of the boy's head, wand drawn -- they'd been surprised enough that evening as it was.
Somehow, he wasn't surprised to see his eyes still open, and burning with rage. The Dark Lord had found himself a fitting vessel indeed. He ignored the anger and the hate, though; the boy was too pale and looked too drawn to still threaten him effectively, even without counting the Petrificus.
The room was dark, with no windows, no chimney and a thick, reinforced oak door that locked from the outside. There were anti-Apparation wards up. Snape nodded in approval, and directed the men to put the boy down on the rather incongruous hospital bed in the middle of the dungeon.
"You can wait at the door," he informed them coolly, leaning over the boy. He knew better than to make them leave; the boy was too dangerous for them to leave anyone alone with him, and asking for that would only make Snape look either obtuse or suspicious.
"The Dark Lord--" Wormtail started, even as the grunts stepped back obediently, one of them walking out to stand guard in the corridor and the other one leaning against the wall to watch over the proceedings.
"You can watch from the door well enough," the Potions Master snapped, and added contemptuously, "I didn't think you would actually want to be in range if it threw even part of the spells off."
The rat Animagus scurried back, flinching. Sneering, Snape turned back toward his charge.
A good cleaning charm later and the boy was a little less dirty -- not a lot less, but at least the drying blood on his arm had disappeared, along with some of the dust and dirt. Snape still couldn't tell what his original skin color was, though. He looked the boy over quickly, ignoring his powerless resentment. He reached for the weird arm-warmers and unbuckled them, and arched an eyebrow at the weird tattoo wrapped around the teenager's left forearm, and the array of blades strapped to both wrists.
His fingers twitched as Snape took off the holsters.
"Don't strain too much," the man advised him in a soft, unconcerned voice. "You will only injure yourself." Inside though, he was mildly impressed. Four Petrificus piled up and the boy's body still wasn't totally frozen.
There were more weirdly shaped knives in the pouch strapped to his thigh, along with a handful of round things -- bombs of some sort if he judged by the wick. He also found a length of metallic wire around his waist; probably the only thing that had kept what was left of the boy's shorts up so long. The wire was difficult to remove -- it bit into the skin if he pulled too sharply. In the end he had to levitate the boy, whose powerless glare went up a notch, if that was even possible.
The long coil of wire went to pile with the other weapons. Snape continued his inspection.
The lone shoe -- open-toed, so strange -- was coated in mud, but if he trusted the rest of the boy's attire, it probably contained weapons too. Maybe something in the heel. It stank, though. He briefly toyed with the idea of asking the rat to check it out, but in the end dropped it on the floor.
The leg-warmers had to be banished off him. One of them was caked with dried mud, and the other, shredded into tiny bits, left fibers in a few half-healed scratches. Two days old maybe? He pondered briefly at the necessary strength of the compulsion that would have made the boy ignore something so basic as cleaning his wounds. With such a strength of will as Snape had glimpsed, the power necessary to subdue him so totally and for so long -- and from so far away, he guessed, though he had no idea where the teenager was from -- should have left him a gibbering mess.
"So? Have you learned anything of interest at all?" Wormtail whined from his corner, disrupting his train of thought.
"It seems to favor bladed weapons," Snape replied silkily, and picked one up to consider the weird triangular shape. "These, in particular, seem especially suited to skewering."
There was a moment of silence, and then Wormtail stammered out, "W-well, I could see the... the knives on my own, but --"
"Then," Snape replied slowly, "why ever did you ask?" Inwardly, he seethed. Wasn't it obvious that he couldn't assess the boy's physical state before he was clean, for one thing? And wasn't it even more obvious that making him as harmless as possible came before taking care of bruises and aches and eventual internal trauma? The boy wasn't going to croak in the ten minutes it took to defang him.
Wormtail mumbled something, but Snape wasn't listening anymore. Turning back to the boy, he met his eyes for a few seconds, and then with a faint touch of apology, banished the tattered shorts and underwear, leaving him nude. Modesty was a luxury he couldn't afford, and wasn't that a pity.
"S-Snape--"
"What," he demanded sharply, using a good Scourgify on the teenager. It probably hurt a bit -- the spell was powerful and might take off a layer of skin or two -- but he didn't want to bother giving him a sponge bath. To get that kind of dirt off, he would need to scrub for hours, and he didn't feel like touching the child any more than necessary. Once clean, he unfolded a blanket and draped it over his legs, covering him from the waist down. There, modesty -- and his eyes -- preserved.
"Why did you--"
"Those rags it was wearing were a nest of vermin. Did you want me to present the Dark Lord his vessel in such a state?"
"... Oh."
Snape caught the odd tone in Wormtail's voice and concluded that the rat suspected him of pedophilia. His opinion of the man's intelligence dropped another notch.
The basic diagnosis spells he used next told him that the boy was physically exhausted, hadn't eaten anything in days and was mildly dehydrated. Frowning, he ordered the guard at the door to go get him water, and made a note to ask the Dark Lord permission to bring in someone trained as a nurse. Field healing, he could do -- sealing a freely bleeding wound for example -- but such ailments were outside of his expertise.
The scratches on his arms and legs only required cleaning and disinfectant; the bruises a little healing salve, which he was carrying in one of his inner pockets. The wrenched right knee was a bit trickier, but the Petrificus kept him unmoving anyway; that would take care of the worst of it.
There was a weird mark on the boy's neck, three dots that elongated into little points. It was black, like a simple ink tattoo, but as the one on his left arm attested, Snape had a more than passing familiarity with magical brands. He pulled a bit parchment out of his pocket and copied it down meticulously to research later, and then copied the larger one on his forearm. He couldn't reveal the underlying enchantments right now without taking off the Petrificus, though; they would have interfered with his diagnosis.
Anything else looked normal -- if in outstanding good health -- and seemed to work properly, but he still clinically opened the boy's mouth to check his teeth, and then pulled up his eyelids.
... Hm.
"Lumos," he muttered, and hissed softly in surprise. The boy's eyes weren't only red, they were... there was a darker circle in the iris, at about equal distance from the pupil and the outer edge of the iris, and on that circle three black dots, slightly elongated at one end. They gave off the impression of spinning around the pupil, and spinning and spinning... He blinked, shaking off the faint hypnotized feeling.
"Uh. S-something wrong...?"
"Merely strange -- stay where you are," he snapped as the rat stepped forward.
He was starting to seriously question his assumption that the boy was human at all. There was no doubt that he was in possession of some intelligence, but the eyes, coupled with the strength and the weird swapping ability... Maybe some kind of demon, which the Dark Lord's spell had forced into a human-like body. Or maybe it had slipped in the empty body that the Dark Lord had made himself -- Snape didn't know enough about the way Voldemort had procured his vessel to guess which was the most likely one.
"S-strange how?" Wormtail asked. Was he actually standing on tiptoes to try peering over Snape's shoulder? The Potions Master sneered.
"It seems to have four pupils."
"... Four," Wormtail repeated weakly.
"In each eye."
"... r-right..."
Apparently it unsettled the coward. Snape slipped into his teacher voice without missing a beat. "The main pupil seems to constricts normally to the light. The three secondaries... hm. Curious. It does look like they're spinning from time to time, but that might just be the eyeball moving to accommodate a better angle of view..."
"... Oh."
The hate was still burning strong. He had a clear feeling that, should he be in the boy's -- or demon's, or whatever he was -- path if he got free... Well. This could be annoying, especially if he ended up freeing it on Albus' orders. He wasn't sure the boy would be anything approaching understanding, much less grateful.
He had to find out more about what the boy was before he had to go back at Hogwarts, though -- Dumbledore couldn't plan for anything if he didn't have that most basic information. Erecting mental shields, he prepared himself to finding a totally alien mindset, then leaned at a better angle, making sure that he couldn't be seen from the door and its guard, and whispered, "Legilimens."
The first thing he noticed was rage. Unhealthy lots of it. The feel was still human, though. Underneath...
His own face -- the white Death Eater mask, black eyes staring through, lanky black hair hanging out of the hood -- on a lacerated body. Images of blood and violence and torture, flashes of intentions trying to mask rage and powerlessness -- held by a capacity to hold grudges that matched his own...
... and underneath... A man with eyeliner around shocking gold eyes and long black hair, licking his neck; the first time his knife had bitten, not in wood, but in flesh; his first kill -- a girl whose feelings baffled him; a blond boy with an infectious grin that he couldn't let die, that he wanted to kill -- a little boy in a familiar, deserted street, bodies all around -- betrayal of the most awful kind -- and then a wave of hate and outrage, memories of a young man with his face shoving him against a wall and raping his mind -- raping his --
Snape was shoved out of the boy's head, with such formidable speed and strength that he only realized he was out when he crashed into Wormtail and they ended up in a heap at the bottom of the wall.
"What?! W-what happened?" the rat wheezed, trapped behind Snape and the wall. The Potions Master straightened up quickly, hiding his dizziness.
"What, pray tell, were you doing, standing behind me?" he asked silkily, his eyelid twitching.
Wormtail squeaked an answer; Snape didn't listen, channeling his surprise and unease at the boy's reaction, and his humiliation at being caught off-guard into fury. "I am done with your interference. Get out of here now, you utter imbecile!"
"But--"
"GET OUT!"
He whirled away, robes flaring, and stalked around the boy's bed to the pile of discarded weapons. There was a terrified squeak, and Wormtail scrambled out of the door so quickly that he bumped into the guard. One unfriendly look, and the man was bowing out with a deference that soothed his bruised ego very little.
It wasn't until he was alone again, with the guards standing on the outside of the open door, that he allowed himself to reach up, slip a hand under his mask, and feel the wet trail slowly making his way to his lips.
His nose was bleeding. He wiped it slowly, staring down at the boy. The brat's face was still frozen in an expression of powerless rage, but underneath, there was some satisfaction now.
Snape cursed in advance all the members of the Order of the Phoenix. The boy was not on Voldemort's side, but he was still a cold-blooded killer, with an amazing propensity for hate and little to no ability for forgiveness. And there was no doubt in Snape's mind that the soft-hearted imbeciles to which he had tied his fate were going to want to rescue him.
As if such a little viper wasn't going to prove just as dangerous to anyone that stood in its path and pretended to control it, whatever the reason. It was a pity that forgetting to mention Voldemort's new prisoner wasn't really an option.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/reiyel/4041.html
1) this is a during-the-timeskip story. Sasuke is fifteen, and has been with the Sound for a little over two years.
2) this is situated after Harry Potter and the order of the Phoenix. There is no book six.
3) this is rather dark. And possibly evil. mmmmm. (come on, it's about Sound!Sasuke, Snape and Voldemort.)
I don't remember how far I posted before, so here's the whole scene. If there are parts that don't sound like Snape, or the HP stuff doesn't sound canon enough, please tell me.
(I'm particularly confused on the ways to break Legilimency and the physical effects of it -- I remember Harry throwing Snape around, unless I mix that up with fics, but is that directly due to the being thrown out of one's mind, or was there a spell used to break concentration/eye contact? Might have to edit a bit...)
It took four Petrificus Totalis before the boy would stop twitching. Bellatrix was all ready to throw in a fifth, but Voldemort stopped her. Severus was glad -- he didn't want to deal with the result of a heart attack, and definitely didn't feel like mouth to mouth resuscitation. It was already unexpected that the boy would still be breathing -- albeit shallowly -- on his own.
Snape took two men to carry him, and followed Wormtail to the chamber that had been prepared to hold the Dark Lord's vessel. He stood at the left of the boy's head, wand drawn -- they'd been surprised enough that evening as it was.
Somehow, he wasn't surprised to see his eyes still open, and burning with rage. The Dark Lord had found himself a fitting vessel indeed. He ignored the anger and the hate, though; the boy was too pale and looked too drawn to still threaten him effectively, even without counting the Petrificus.
The room was dark, with no windows, no chimney and a thick, reinforced oak door that locked from the outside. There were anti-Apparation wards up. Snape nodded in approval, and directed the men to put the boy down on the rather incongruous hospital bed in the middle of the dungeon.
"You can wait at the door," he informed them coolly, leaning over the boy. He knew better than to make them leave; the boy was too dangerous for them to leave anyone alone with him, and asking for that would only make Snape look either obtuse or suspicious.
"The Dark Lord--" Wormtail started, even as the grunts stepped back obediently, one of them walking out to stand guard in the corridor and the other one leaning against the wall to watch over the proceedings.
"You can watch from the door well enough," the Potions Master snapped, and added contemptuously, "I didn't think you would actually want to be in range if it threw even part of the spells off."
The rat Animagus scurried back, flinching. Sneering, Snape turned back toward his charge.
A good cleaning charm later and the boy was a little less dirty -- not a lot less, but at least the drying blood on his arm had disappeared, along with some of the dust and dirt. Snape still couldn't tell what his original skin color was, though. He looked the boy over quickly, ignoring his powerless resentment. He reached for the weird arm-warmers and unbuckled them, and arched an eyebrow at the weird tattoo wrapped around the teenager's left forearm, and the array of blades strapped to both wrists.
His fingers twitched as Snape took off the holsters.
"Don't strain too much," the man advised him in a soft, unconcerned voice. "You will only injure yourself." Inside though, he was mildly impressed. Four Petrificus piled up and the boy's body still wasn't totally frozen.
There were more weirdly shaped knives in the pouch strapped to his thigh, along with a handful of round things -- bombs of some sort if he judged by the wick. He also found a length of metallic wire around his waist; probably the only thing that had kept what was left of the boy's shorts up so long. The wire was difficult to remove -- it bit into the skin if he pulled too sharply. In the end he had to levitate the boy, whose powerless glare went up a notch, if that was even possible.
The long coil of wire went to pile with the other weapons. Snape continued his inspection.
The lone shoe -- open-toed, so strange -- was coated in mud, but if he trusted the rest of the boy's attire, it probably contained weapons too. Maybe something in the heel. It stank, though. He briefly toyed with the idea of asking the rat to check it out, but in the end dropped it on the floor.
The leg-warmers had to be banished off him. One of them was caked with dried mud, and the other, shredded into tiny bits, left fibers in a few half-healed scratches. Two days old maybe? He pondered briefly at the necessary strength of the compulsion that would have made the boy ignore something so basic as cleaning his wounds. With such a strength of will as Snape had glimpsed, the power necessary to subdue him so totally and for so long -- and from so far away, he guessed, though he had no idea where the teenager was from -- should have left him a gibbering mess.
"So? Have you learned anything of interest at all?" Wormtail whined from his corner, disrupting his train of thought.
"It seems to favor bladed weapons," Snape replied silkily, and picked one up to consider the weird triangular shape. "These, in particular, seem especially suited to skewering."
There was a moment of silence, and then Wormtail stammered out, "W-well, I could see the... the knives on my own, but --"
"Then," Snape replied slowly, "why ever did you ask?" Inwardly, he seethed. Wasn't it obvious that he couldn't assess the boy's physical state before he was clean, for one thing? And wasn't it even more obvious that making him as harmless as possible came before taking care of bruises and aches and eventual internal trauma? The boy wasn't going to croak in the ten minutes it took to defang him.
Wormtail mumbled something, but Snape wasn't listening anymore. Turning back to the boy, he met his eyes for a few seconds, and then with a faint touch of apology, banished the tattered shorts and underwear, leaving him nude. Modesty was a luxury he couldn't afford, and wasn't that a pity.
"S-Snape--"
"What," he demanded sharply, using a good Scourgify on the teenager. It probably hurt a bit -- the spell was powerful and might take off a layer of skin or two -- but he didn't want to bother giving him a sponge bath. To get that kind of dirt off, he would need to scrub for hours, and he didn't feel like touching the child any more than necessary. Once clean, he unfolded a blanket and draped it over his legs, covering him from the waist down. There, modesty -- and his eyes -- preserved.
"Why did you--"
"Those rags it was wearing were a nest of vermin. Did you want me to present the Dark Lord his vessel in such a state?"
"... Oh."
Snape caught the odd tone in Wormtail's voice and concluded that the rat suspected him of pedophilia. His opinion of the man's intelligence dropped another notch.
The basic diagnosis spells he used next told him that the boy was physically exhausted, hadn't eaten anything in days and was mildly dehydrated. Frowning, he ordered the guard at the door to go get him water, and made a note to ask the Dark Lord permission to bring in someone trained as a nurse. Field healing, he could do -- sealing a freely bleeding wound for example -- but such ailments were outside of his expertise.
The scratches on his arms and legs only required cleaning and disinfectant; the bruises a little healing salve, which he was carrying in one of his inner pockets. The wrenched right knee was a bit trickier, but the Petrificus kept him unmoving anyway; that would take care of the worst of it.
There was a weird mark on the boy's neck, three dots that elongated into little points. It was black, like a simple ink tattoo, but as the one on his left arm attested, Snape had a more than passing familiarity with magical brands. He pulled a bit parchment out of his pocket and copied it down meticulously to research later, and then copied the larger one on his forearm. He couldn't reveal the underlying enchantments right now without taking off the Petrificus, though; they would have interfered with his diagnosis.
Anything else looked normal -- if in outstanding good health -- and seemed to work properly, but he still clinically opened the boy's mouth to check his teeth, and then pulled up his eyelids.
... Hm.
"Lumos," he muttered, and hissed softly in surprise. The boy's eyes weren't only red, they were... there was a darker circle in the iris, at about equal distance from the pupil and the outer edge of the iris, and on that circle three black dots, slightly elongated at one end. They gave off the impression of spinning around the pupil, and spinning and spinning... He blinked, shaking off the faint hypnotized feeling.
"Uh. S-something wrong...?"
"Merely strange -- stay where you are," he snapped as the rat stepped forward.
He was starting to seriously question his assumption that the boy was human at all. There was no doubt that he was in possession of some intelligence, but the eyes, coupled with the strength and the weird swapping ability... Maybe some kind of demon, which the Dark Lord's spell had forced into a human-like body. Or maybe it had slipped in the empty body that the Dark Lord had made himself -- Snape didn't know enough about the way Voldemort had procured his vessel to guess which was the most likely one.
"S-strange how?" Wormtail asked. Was he actually standing on tiptoes to try peering over Snape's shoulder? The Potions Master sneered.
"It seems to have four pupils."
"... Four," Wormtail repeated weakly.
"In each eye."
"... r-right..."
Apparently it unsettled the coward. Snape slipped into his teacher voice without missing a beat. "The main pupil seems to constricts normally to the light. The three secondaries... hm. Curious. It does look like they're spinning from time to time, but that might just be the eyeball moving to accommodate a better angle of view..."
"... Oh."
The hate was still burning strong. He had a clear feeling that, should he be in the boy's -- or demon's, or whatever he was -- path if he got free... Well. This could be annoying, especially if he ended up freeing it on Albus' orders. He wasn't sure the boy would be anything approaching understanding, much less grateful.
He had to find out more about what the boy was before he had to go back at Hogwarts, though -- Dumbledore couldn't plan for anything if he didn't have that most basic information. Erecting mental shields, he prepared himself to finding a totally alien mindset, then leaned at a better angle, making sure that he couldn't be seen from the door and its guard, and whispered, "Legilimens."
The first thing he noticed was rage. Unhealthy lots of it. The feel was still human, though. Underneath...
His own face -- the white Death Eater mask, black eyes staring through, lanky black hair hanging out of the hood -- on a lacerated body. Images of blood and violence and torture, flashes of intentions trying to mask rage and powerlessness -- held by a capacity to hold grudges that matched his own...
... and underneath... A man with eyeliner around shocking gold eyes and long black hair, licking his neck; the first time his knife had bitten, not in wood, but in flesh; his first kill -- a girl whose feelings baffled him; a blond boy with an infectious grin that he couldn't let die, that he wanted to kill -- a little boy in a familiar, deserted street, bodies all around -- betrayal of the most awful kind -- and then a wave of hate and outrage, memories of a young man with his face shoving him against a wall and raping his mind -- raping his --
Snape was shoved out of the boy's head, with such formidable speed and strength that he only realized he was out when he crashed into Wormtail and they ended up in a heap at the bottom of the wall.
"What?! W-what happened?" the rat wheezed, trapped behind Snape and the wall. The Potions Master straightened up quickly, hiding his dizziness.
"What, pray tell, were you doing, standing behind me?" he asked silkily, his eyelid twitching.
Wormtail squeaked an answer; Snape didn't listen, channeling his surprise and unease at the boy's reaction, and his humiliation at being caught off-guard into fury. "I am done with your interference. Get out of here now, you utter imbecile!"
"But--"
"GET OUT!"
He whirled away, robes flaring, and stalked around the boy's bed to the pile of discarded weapons. There was a terrified squeak, and Wormtail scrambled out of the door so quickly that he bumped into the guard. One unfriendly look, and the man was bowing out with a deference that soothed his bruised ego very little.
It wasn't until he was alone again, with the guards standing on the outside of the open door, that he allowed himself to reach up, slip a hand under his mask, and feel the wet trail slowly making his way to his lips.
His nose was bleeding. He wiped it slowly, staring down at the boy. The brat's face was still frozen in an expression of powerless rage, but underneath, there was some satisfaction now.
Snape cursed in advance all the members of the Order of the Phoenix. The boy was not on Voldemort's side, but he was still a cold-blooded killer, with an amazing propensity for hate and little to no ability for forgiveness. And there was no doubt in Snape's mind that the soft-hearted imbeciles to which he had tied his fate were going to want to rescue him.
As if such a little viper wasn't going to prove just as dangerous to anyone that stood in its path and pretended to control it, whatever the reason. It was a pity that forgetting to mention Voldemort's new prisoner wasn't really an option.
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(Think you meant "The")
Ooooh, I like your Severus, Asuka! His attitude towards the Order is just right, too.
Can't wait for more!
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^__^ hehe, thanks. (but uh i kind of stilldon'tknowwhathappensnext. yeah. *runs off*)
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Man, I really need to reread book five, don't I? xP
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Also, you said that Snape is wearing his Death Eater mask, but later you have him reaching up and wiping his nose bleed, with no mention of putting his hand under his mask or taking off his mask (which I doubt he would do).
Beat the crud outta Voldie, Sasuke! XD
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XD
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And about legilimency -- If I remember correctly, Snape was thrown out because Harry couldn't do it with his mind alone, he was far too emotional. Normally they only block mentally. I think with Sasuke it would've thrown Snape out physically by simple anger and whatnot.
Did that make sense? Aah, meaning a person who actually knows what they're doing with Occlumency would block only mentally. Knowing somebody is in your head but not knowing how to block it would end up with physically wrenching the person out of your mind instead of simply blocking. Is that better? U_U
job well done
(Anonymous) 2005-12-27 04:13 am (UTC)(link)no subject
*puts on Konoha headband like Sakura and prances about cracked-out like*
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Owch.
(Anonymous) 2005-12-27 01:53 pm (UTC)(link)And Snape has a very good point. He is NOT someone to send to the rescue, particularly if they have no way of explaining what's going on. All he has to do is point out that the boy is going to see him as one of the enemy. (...and neglect to mention that he was wearing his mask, since I doubt they realize that shinobi can probably recognize people by chakra.)
I have a few small characterization gripes, however - because we seem to be getting a very skewed view of Sasuke here. Is his time in Sound REALLY going to screw with his mind that much? That doesn't make much sense to me. Powering himself with all that anger isn't going to work long-term, and it HAS been two years. Single-mindedly focused on learning everything he can, yes. But a constant knot of rage? He'd have flown off the handle by now if that were the case.
And Naruto? Sasuke doesn't want to kill Naruto. Yes, for a brief time he fully intended to do so, but (In My Humble Opinion) he was focusing on what he would gain by doing so, rather than actively wanting to kill his best friend. And after that fight, I think we can decisively say that he DOESN'T want to kill Naruto - because he had his chance, deliberately gave it up, and the last we saw of THAT incident was his determination to break free of his brother's influence and gain strength his OWN way.
*tilts her head to the side thoughtfully* Actually... Looking back on it, I think Snape only got the Angry!Sasuke personality here. Which makes sense, as Sasuke is absolutely furious - come to think of it, he's probably in some sort of berserker mindset. And he CAN'T MOVE. Is absolutely helpless, in fact - which has to be number two on the list of things he hates the most, right up there after Itachi (who makes him feel helpless anyway). That's... um... not exactly going to help him calm down, shall we say.
So Snape only picked up on the memories and thoughts associated with that berserker mindset. He didn't actually pick up on the PERSONALITY at all. (...Well, beyond the fact that Sasuke IS rather angry by nature, and at the moment has no mitigating influences around.)
One quick question: first kill? Did that actually happen in the anime? At last check (going by the manga), he has never actually KILLED anyone. In fact, the only time it came up (back in the fight with Haku), Kakashi mentioned that Sasuke still wasn't mentally capable of it. (Naruto reached the point of getting around that, but only when Sasuke was 'dead.') I don't THINK we saw any actually killing in the Chuunin exam - breaking arms messily, yes, but no killing. He might have (if he were capable of it) been able to kill Itachi - MAYBE - but the fact remains that, at the time of leaving for the Sound, manga!Sasuke still had never actually killed anyone that we know of.
You could argue that he's been killing since he joined the Sound - given the total lack of canon information there at the moment, you have carte blanche. And certainly he had no hesitation about killing the Death Eaters, so you do have THAT established. But cold-blooded killing? I'm not sure that Sasuke would do that. In a rage, yes, in a fight for his life, yes, but cold blood? That's a different matter entirely.
Besides, he's certainly smart enough - at least, if he's NOT in a rage - to recognize the necessity of getting information. Which means NOT killing someone who might know something useful.
*laughs sheepishly and rubs the back of her head* Well, the argument can go both ways. Just thought I'd weigh in with my two cents on the characterization here...
Re: Owch.
*is sleep deprived yey* *will answer short and to the point
unless she starts rambling about other stuff* *finds stuff funny when it actually isn't wheee beeed*-Yep, Snape should have known better; i really should up the "okay it's a risk but i have to KNOW what the hell that kid is" side of his decision; i don't think it shows quite enough. *ponders*
-Snape is picking on the rage because right now that's what sasuke is feeling and concentrating on. like you said he's helpless and doesn't know wtf is going on and there are people trying to control him. he haaates that. hatehatehates.
-about naruto, "that he'd wanted to kill" might be more appropriate. *mixes up the subtle tense shifts, bad asuka bad* but he was thinking about killing stuff, snape was looking for stuff about killing, so he's digging up the moods of sasuke's that fit with the killkill pattern. i'm not making lots of sense but whatevar.
-sasuke isn't always angry, but recently he's been frustrated because oro doesn't teach him enough stuff -- he brought him to a level where once he moves in sasuke he'll have no trouble building up his old strength again, but then he drains his chakra and doesn't teach him more advanced techniques, the real useful, bloody and devastating kinds. because oro knows them and so long as sasuke is at a level where he's able to learn and use them it doesn't matter if he actually knows them yet -- in less than a year it won't matter, oro will remember how to do them just fine.
Sasuke was that close to coming to the conclusion that oro is now a dead end and he should just cut his losses and leave when he got sasuke-napped. (no bucket this time. voldie trumps oro? ^o^;;; whee asuka thought patterns)
-first kill happened in Sound and i will probably talk about that more later in the fic. Sasuke has decided to sacrifice everything that's dead weight after all, and his ability to care and have mercy is one, by Oro standards. so yeah. in sound. and will develop probably. (i kind of feel like oro had a guy to kill like a spy or something and tested sasuke with him/her. to see if he could. will have to plot more.)
-learning to kill in sound -- i feel like oro will push him to that, because it will destroy his links with humanity and he doesn't want sasuke to have a heart; he might change his mind. Oro can't get sasuke's loyalty; sasuke is only truly loyal to himself (and arguably to the people he has bonds with, which is why he had to destroy his bonds to be able to go on) so he has to make sure that the cold, logical reasons why sasuke came to him aren't countered by his feelings.
what i can't see is sasuke torturing easily. If he needs the info to save someone/the village, he will, but it will be the clean kind and he won't enjoy it. likewise i can see him learning to kill coldly, with detachment, (or in self-defense but that's different), but he'll never ever learn to like it or feel proud of it or do it for no good reason. if it's necessary, he'll do it quickly and cleanly.
/tangent
-he would torture info out of the death eaters, if only because he has no fucking clue where he is and he has never heard of any organisation like theirs and all, so he DOES need it, but there's one problem with that. XD he doesn't know the language they're using. Getting info in a non-verbal way would be a lot longer and require him to leave his captive with free hands so they could draw/point at stuff/find maps and show them to him and all that. besides it's hard to get much from body language except terror and yes/no when you're torturing someone. XD
right now escape is his first priority.
*cuddleloves you* whee thanks for making me think a bit. it was very nice to see what you thought about it too ^___^ if there's anything you think needs clarification, or that I didn't explain well enough or that you still think is ooc, please don't hesitate to point it out. writing rage!sasuke from snape's POV is kind of flying blind, really. i'll be grateful for all the help i get. XD
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and. yeah. .__.;;;;;; *is plotting really*
Re: job well done
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(god i want to sleep dad leave me alone goddamnit i need a nap alright so go away now go awayyyy)
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... lexicoooon here i cooome...
Re: Owch.
(Anonymous) 2005-12-27 08:55 pm (UTC)(link)*smiles sheepishly* Some time ago, I left one of my long rambles up on the version of this that you have posted under Reiyel. One of the things I mentioned was the fact that, Death Eater or no, just about everyone in a modern-day world is going to look really SOFT to Sasuke. He was more or less a legal adult with license to kill (if not quite toughened up to that stage) at twelve years old, after all. Personal experience with killing aside, he's still SEEN plenty of blood and dead bodies and people BEING killed. And he's seen his own death coming at him a time or two.
*coughs* Um, anyway... moving on.
Oro not teaching him stuff: bad move, Oro. I completely agree with your assessment of that situation, by the way. Oro probably wasn't expecting Sasuke to learn quite THAT fast and ran out of stuff he was willing to teach before he expected it. And yes, Sasuke would leave him in an instant if Sasuke thought that Oro was deliberately stalling him.
The killing bit, however... I'm not sure Oro would take that risk. True, damaging Sasuke's moral code might help him, but the trouble is that the more he does that, the more dangerous and difficult to control Sasuke will become. Not to mention that ordering Sasuke to kill someone in cold blood would probably push Sasuke's tenuous 'allegiance' too close to the breaking point for Orochimaru to risk it, particularly for mental training that - like any advanced techniques - Sasuke himself doesn't need to experience in the least. Now, granted, if Sasuke's seen any amount of combat, he's probably killed in that context any number of times, given the Sounds' typical strategies and the matter of sheer efficiency (faster, easier, and safer to kill your opponent quickly; disabling strikes leave the danger that an enemy you thought was down will get up and go for your back).
Which is why I asked: can Snape tell the difference? Because there is a difference, and an important one, between being a 'cold-blooded killer' and being perfectly willing to kill. And it's a difference that someone who lives in a world like modern Britain, where death is relatively rare and cause for massive shock when it does happen, might not recognize.
Particularly if all he's seeing is fury. When we get angry, our minds get VERY blood-thirsty. :-P
By the by - torture? Meep? Where did that come into the question? But since you bring it up... I agree with your assessment. Sasuke could probably torture someone for information if he had to, but he would NOT be happy about it, nor be particularly good at it, or at least anything beyond intimidation. And in a situation where he can't understand what they're saying anyway? Pft, screw this, COMPLETE waste of time, I'm outta here, so long!
Hmmm. Just had an odd thought. Is Snape going to recognize that Sasuke interpreted the Legimency as being like Tsukiyomi - which is to say, from Snape's point of view, 'raping his mind'? If so... ow. Not that Snape isn't ruthless himself, but still, having someone feel like you're raping their mind can't exactly be good for the ol' self-image.
...Which also gives him a very good reason to stay away, at least until someone can figure out a way to communicate what's going on to Sasuke. Because by that interpretation, Sasuke has every reason - and arguably, right - to demand a blood-payment for that.
Re: Owch.
(Anonymous) 2005-12-27 08:58 pm (UTC)(link)One thing about the writing: the flow of memories as Snape tries to read Sasuke's mind is confusing. The first time I read it through, I couldn't distinguish the difference between the -- and the ; punctuation. It was doubly confusing because the dash normally reads to me as "what comes after this is a further description of what came before it."
Which means that his first kill -- a girl whose feelings baffled him... Well, I read that as "his first kill was a girl whose feelings baffled him." And then right after that, a blond boy with an infectious grin that he couldn't let die, that he wanted to kill -- a little boy in a familiar, deserted street, bodies all around... that originally came off as the "little boy" being the same as the "blond boy."
I think you can see why I was a little baffled. :-P So you might want to look over the punctuation in that paragraph again and see if you can't change it around a little...?
And about the responses... well, you've already seen a few of my posts. Trust me, you don't need to ask me to make lots of comments. Usually, the problem is getting me to shut up! :-P
And as for reading over your shoulder - I did it again? Yes! I'm psychic! WHEEE! *victory dance* *pause* Wait, shouldn't be advertising the fact... Mwahahahah...
...:-P Nah, I just think too much about stories I like. Nothing more to it than that. ^_^
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whee more sleepy ramblings~
He's aware of it -- but he also knows very well that the boy feels too raw to be a very good legiliment, which means that Snape's only finding memories of stuff that HAS happened, which means, okay, he only sees the bad, bad sides of sasuke, but that's what he wants to know about. He's a pessimist and he never trusts people, he figures looking for the good sides and concentrating on them is something for foolishly trusting people like Dumbledore. Snape wants to know the worse Sasuke can do, because he's pretty sure at some point he'll have to deal with it. (also because he's a twisted, bitter man and really doesn't think good sides mean anything in the long run, so he discards them -- that means he's not getting a complete picture and he's aware of that, but he really doesn't want to know about any of that)
Snape is aware that there's a distinction between someone who can kill in cold blood and someone who wants to -- he knows that sasuke is not a sociopath because there are memories of caring -- but these memories are mostly twisted by later betrayal -- Itachi's betrayal of him or his own betrayal of Naruto. Snape didn't get much time to concentrate yet on what he has learned, though, so for now he just knows that Sasuke has no trouble at all about killing if provoked, and that's enough for him to be wary.
Yeah, Sasuke is going to laugh a lot at most of of Voldie's minions. (well, as much as sasuke laughs at anything XD) They're all civilians to him, really.
True, damaging Sasuke's moral code might help him, but the trouble is that the more he does that, the more dangerous and difficult to control Sasuke will become.
Hm, not from my point of view. Damaging Sasuke's moral code means Sasuke has no grounds to think himself virtuous= pure= deserving of being liked/loved, besides the more "evil" (more like amoral) he gets, the less likely (in sasuke's opinion, which is what Oro counts on) Naruto and Sakura and Kakashi are to forgive him and take him back. And if it's not for them, he has no real reason to go back to Konoha. Orochimaru hates Konoha so much that he's made this his primary goal -- prevent sasuke from ever being able to go back, even if he wants to. (he didn't trust that Sasuke himself would steel his own heart by forbidding himself to plan on that.) Sasuke's need to avenge his family, though, can't be twisted or diverted that easily, and Oro's now discovering that he won't be able to stall Sasuke as long as he needs to, and would need to resort to drastic measures soon. It's not because Sasuke's moral code is finally wavering -- it's because Oro was biased against Konoha, which he hates so very much, and wasn't watching out for Sasuke's determination to get revenge at all costs as much as he should have.
orochimaru might equate his own need to get revenge on konoha for the slight of not being made Hokage or whatever it was that made him leave with sasuke's need to get revenge on his brother, but what Sasuke has that he doesn't have, is a sense of justice, not entitlement. oro felt entitled to being named the hokage, and he felt entitled to all these people's lives e took for his experiments. (Oro is a sociopath, whee.) Sasuke wants revenge for the bonds of love and family that were taken from him, not only what material things and status he perceived were his. This makes them very different underneath it all, and if oro realized this, I'm sure he assumed that having something to be self-righteous about would mean Sasuke would be easier to manipulate, but. heh. no.
*train of thought crashes and burns*
hungry, brb.
Re: Owch.
Anyway uh. Sasuke has made the decision to go to any lengths to reach his goal, and while Orochimaru is careful not to order him to do evil stuff like raping or killing babies, which indeed might push sasuke too far, having him execute people who are already supposed to die (spies, traitors) is a good way to have sasuke learn to kill in cold blood, because the boy rationalizes to himself that they're going to die anyway, and at least if he does it, it will be cleanly and without too much undue suffering or mind games. Oro does "gently" mock Sasuke for his inability to enjoy his own power and superiority, but sasuke doesn't care that much about making him proud and oro isn't about to go out and actually make it an order to gratuitiously kill and have fun with it. THAT would be pushing too far.
And back to Snape... He might be able to tell the difference if he has some time to think about it, but I don't think he'll care much to change the way he behaves -- Sasuke is still a killer to him, which is more than enough warning. He knows there are degrees of killer mindset, but it doesn't matter that the boy isn't a complete sociopath if this doesn't slow him down all that much.
Later on, he's going to see if Sasuke would respect a deal he makes, maybe, and he will be aware that Sasuke needs to have a reason to kill when not in battle/self-defense, but this won't make him forget and trust him any. (now dumbledore might be one to care about that difference, and decide to trust that if they don't give a reason to sasuke to see them as enemies, he will have no reason to kill anyone -- but snape isn't so big with the trusting.)
torture -- I dunno, i guess I was thinking about what sasuke might do when he makes his escape. or tries to. (dunno yet, need to think the scene out more, i just have a few notions of the things that happen) XD my trains of thoughts can be rather random sometimes, so heh.
Snape might realize that sasuke interprets this as torture, but he won't care. Either Snape doesn't really see it like that, which is all that matters -- or even if he does, he has already proved that he will do whatever is necessary. he needed to know, he took a look. If the boy didn't like it, too bad.
Despite what Fandom might pretend, Snape is not a fair man. he knows the world is not fair and sees no reason to be fair back. He does understand revenge, though. If Sasuke comes after him for raping his mind, he will understand -- though he will still counterattack, because only gryffindors "take their due punishment". Snape is a survivor -- he'll do whatever it takes to stay alive. (though his spying for the order is an interesting dichotomy -- but okay yeah moving on, not starting a ramble about Snape right here)
Snape might be fully aware that Legilimency is not fair, and invasive, and people might argue that they have a right to their privacy and it's almost rape to have the sanctity of their own mind invaded (even if he just skims the surface, it's still akin to groping or voyeurism), but having and using the skill does mean that he places knowing what people are up to well over their right to privacy. He also knows that some people will be annoyed with him for looking without permission, and some will just be startled, and some intensely private people (like himself. hypocrite.) are going to hate it with the fiery passion of a thousand suns, but he's already proved in canon that he really doesn't care about being fair and respectful of people's privacy all that much. So if he understands that Sasuke views it as rape, he won't really give much of a damn, because in his point of view it was necessary. Not to say he won't present his apologies if Dumbledore tells him to, but it will be lip service -- if he had to do it again, he would; there's no remorse there.
hahaha omg triple post. damn you LJ. XD
... you know... if you don't tell me that you are the same person who said stuff before or whatever, i'm not going to notice. XD i know I have IP logging, but i never look at it anyway, so for me there's no real way to realize that you're the same person. I might think "hmm, that reminds me of", but since i don't even have a name to attach to the opinions, I can't really form an image. @_@ I understand if you want to keep your anonymous status, but could you at least sign with a letter or a symbol or something? It's kinda hard for me to tell if you're anonymous two or seven at first glance. XD
Re: Owch.
I like to imagine that he needs to have sasuke be amoral, because with no moral codes it makes people more malleable. And they're going to end up in the same body eventually, and he did say himself that he keeps traces of the personalities of the people he possesses -- he doesn't want to keep anything of Sasuke's that might be strong enough to upset his own mentality. Which means he can't afford to have Sasuke be too much against killing, because it might be a trait that stays with him afterwards, and he would hate to lose any of his vicious ruthlessness or the enjoyment he gets in utterly crushing his enemies.
He doesn't know how to get rid of Sasuke's need for revenge yet, though, which is why he's trying to dull his mind and the foundations of his personality -- he doesn't want such an obsession with seeing justice done; sasuke's obsession is too strong to be skewed very quickly by Orochimaru's entitlement thing. So he's been trying to make Sasuke change his determination (which is a strenght) into a psychotic fixation (which he might be able to manipulate) but it didn't work so well; what Sasuke feels about Itachi has always been outside of other people's reach. Now he's working on making sasuke lose his patience and start feeling aware that he's trapped and his goals are hopeless -- if sasuke realizes that he's never going to be able to kill itachi, maybe he'll break, and then moving in will be a lot easier.
It's not gonna work either. XD; but by then Orochimaru has become aware that this is as good as he'll get it, and he trusts enough in his own strenght of mind to assume that eventually he'll either subvert or destroy the obsession with killing Itachi -- that or he wanted to kill Itachi anyway (bet he hated to be scared of him) and once he's moved in, killing Itachi will be a goal he shares with Sasuke, so the obsession will be a good thing. Once Itachi is dead, the obsession will die he can get rid of that side of Sasuke's mind.
Sasuke, though, wants to kill Itachi on his own terms. His brother, his kill. He's not going to get to a point where he thinks "i don't care HOW he dies, I just want him DEAD" anytime soon. He's still very much fixated on being the one to kill him, the one who has that right. Itachi is his brother and killed his family; Itachi left him alive and gave him his life goal. Itachi is the center of his life. Sasuke really doesn't want anyone to give him a hand in bringing Itachi down.
Re: Owch.
(Anonymous) 2005-12-28 02:12 pm (UTC)(link)And as for the response...
Regarding Snape: *yips and backs up a bit, holding hands out in a semi-pacifying gesture* Okay, just a second. I agree, absolutely and completely, about your assessment of Snape's priorities. He IS a survivor, he IS a pessimist, he DOES have a very dark view of human nature. But bear in mind, he is also a spy, and he is highly analytical. Both those traits mean that he's going to be looking for the most information that he can get. He's gotten the information that yes, Sasuke can be dangerous. What he doesn't have is any information about is what restrictions Sasuke has on his dangerous side. That will be extremely important information, particularly if he suspects that he's going to be at all involved in any extraction attempts.
*shrugs* I guess it has to do with different interpretations of the character. My personal view of Snape is that, while he certainly does have a dark view of human nature and will naturally assume the worst, he also hates being in the dark more. Which means that he's going to go looking for the most information possible. If that were the case, I can't see him being content with a one-sided view of someone. That's very limited and flawed information, and thus not all THAT useful.
Besides - Snape is manipulative. He likes knowing exactly what buttons to push. Again, his one-sided dive is not going to get him that information. And he would REALLY like to know what buttons to push to make someone NOT kill him. As you said, he's a survivor.
*tilts her head to the side thoughtfully* Of course, you can certainly make the argument that Snape only had time for a very brief scan. In addition, Sasuke is perfectly happy to throw hostility out, but anything non-hostile will probably be viciously guarded. He is a prickly little bastard, after all. :-P
And you raised a good point - he hasn't had time to absorb what he picked up or get the nuances. So it's entirely possible that what he's getting is "I'm willing to kill AND I'D REALLY LIKE TO DO SO RIGHT NOW!" And that's the most... DECISIVE image that he got. And he hasn't had time to sort out the stuff underneath it.
Let's back up just a bit. The line that triggered this whole discussion about Snape was: "The boy was not on Voldemort's side, but he was still a cold-blooded killer, with an amazing propensity for hate and little to no ability for forgiveness." And really, the only part that I have a particular objection to is the 'cold-blooded' bit, because (to my interpretation) that doesn't fit - determined, yes, disciplined, yes, ruthless, yes, vicious, quite possibly (one might say that knifing your hand through someone's windpipe is vicious, particularly if one is used to a killing style that is NOT particularly bloody), but cold-blooded? *shakes her head* That part doesn't fit.
Annoying, isn't it? One little word, and it colors the reader's entire perception of what you've written.
As for the other objections regarding Snape's PoV... Hmmm. *thinks* *nods decisively* In light of your explanations, I rescind them. You're right - this is Snape's point of view. I was critiquing from an omniscient perspective. Yes, the point of view that Snape has is skewed. Fancy that... I suppose my only excuse is that somehow, I assumed that looking inside someone's head would by necessity give a more complete look at their character. And we all know what they say about assumptions.
*bows graciously* Apologies for that... And now...
*long pause* *eyes the length of her comment*
I believe that I shall move on to a different post, because otherwise this thing is going to be FAAAAR too long. ^^;
Re: Owch.
(Anonymous) 2005-12-28 02:50 pm (UTC)(link)Damaging Sasuke's moral code means Sasuke has no grounds to think himself virtuous= pure= deserving of being liked/loved, besides the more "evil" (more like amoral) he gets, the less likely (in sasuke's opinion, which is what Oro counts on) Naruto and Sakura and Kakashi are to forgive him and take him back.
If Orochimaru wanted Sasuke to feel unable to return to Konoha, then it's in his interests NOT to destroy Sasuke's morality. The situation you're describing here is one where Orochimaru is USING Sasuke's moral code in order to make Sasuke feel that he has FAILED said code.
When I said that Orochimaru wouldn't want to destroy Sasuke's morality because doing so would make him harder to control, what I meant was that those people who have a conscience have things that they aren't willing to do, lines that they'll refuse to cross, and the manipulative type can easily find ways to trap someone by using those self-imposed limitations. As you said - if Sasuke feels he's crossed the line, then he'll feel 'unworthy' of returning, and possibily might view staying in Sound as a kind of penance. But if he is amoral, then he just plain won't care either way, and might ditch the Sound even faster.
Sasuke gave up a lot to come to the Sound, and because of that, he's not going to leave until he's certain that he's gained everything he can with that sacrifice. Make him amoral, and he won't be balancing the risks of staying with the Sound against his betrayal of Konoha, he'll just be looking at the benefits of staying - and thus, he's more likely to decide to up and leave. IMHO, at least.
I don't think that someone who is amoral is going to be particularly more malleable. Less so, even. The fact of the matter is that Sasuke is stubborn and driven, and whether he has a conscience or not isn't going to make much of a difference.
So I don't think that this argument is particularly solid. (From my perspective, of course.) However!
he did say himself that he keeps traces of the personalities of the people he possesses
Oh! *blinks and raises her eyebrows* Now THAT, I'd forgotten. And that's a good point to make. A conscience WOULD rather interfere with Orochimaru's plans. The only hole I see is that, if Orochimaru only retains TRACES of the personalities, then logically those traces would be of the personality's strongest characteristics. I'd say that as far as Sasuke goes, his vendetta probably trumps his conscience. (It does not trump the lives of his friends, but Orochimaru probably doesn't know what went on between Sasuke and Naruto in that final battle and so he wouldn't realize that. He'd probably equate leaving one's friends with not caring about them...)
*coughs and smiles wryly* And it occurs to me that we're BOTH ignoring something very basic here, which is that in a large way, the question of conscience doesn't MATTER, at least when we're talking about killing. Because they're SHINOBI. They're basically mercenaries. Killing is NOT considered an immoral act in their world. Distasteful, certainly. But the fact of the matter is that ALL shinobi have to learn how to kill. It HAPPENS. Either you kill him, or the other guy is gonna kill you.
Which is actually a mentality that Snape might very well IDENTIFY with - although Dumbledore and his allies might or might not have a little trouble with it.
The last part of this post is coming... wow, this really IS long... *laughs sheepishly*
Re: Owch.
(Anonymous) 2005-12-28 03:03 pm (UTC)(link)By the by, the Legimency thing: I suspect that interpreting Legimency as 'mental rape' is a bit unusual. Dispicable and all those other things, yes, but not particularly rape - as in, a deliberate attempt to attack, control, shatter, and crush. The problem was that the Legimency got associated with Tsukiyomi - which IS a deliberate attack, rather than just an invasion of privacy.
I guess what I was thinking about was how much of the emotion behind that memory Snape picked up. If you're in someone's head, logically their emotional reaction is going to affect you.
*smiles crookedly* I'm not sure that Snape would ENTIRELY blow off something like that - the man has to have SOME scruples, or why would he be working for Dumbledore, and in such a DANGEROUS position to boot? But you've got a point that he probably wouldn't let it do more than shake him a little. One wonders how Dumbledore would react, on the other hand. :-P
Torture - no, that isn't going to happen. Think about it. Torture requires a secure location, no hope for rescue on the part of the victim, it's messy, and most importantly it takes TIME. And a fair bit of it. Sasuke isn't going to have the means to do it, even if he had the inclination. And he doesn't.
*tilts her head to the side* Actually, are you sure you aren't confusing torture with interrogation? Because Sasuke would DEFINITELY want to get information, and given that he's only met hostile forces thus far, interrogation and spying would be the only options he has for getting it. Torture IS an interrogation method, but it's far from being the only one.
Besides, he wouldn't NEED torture. Quite frankly, it's generally a last-ditch information-gathering method. Most people find it distasteful anyway, it's difficult to do correctly, etc. Sasuke is scary enough on his own, he wouldn't need to resort to that. At most, just the THREAT of causing physical pain and damage would probably be enough. After all, if Voldemort really gathered together all of his followers for that summoning, then they ALL know that he's perfectly willing and able to kill them.
If you ask me, Sasuke's response to escaping would be to get his distance, then scout and watch what's going on. Even without speaking the language, he could probably get a reasonable grasp of the basics of the situation. He would almost definitely not try moving into the society until he had some idea of what he was getting into. Reconnoitering is an important skill, after all. But hey, that's my take on the situation. :-P
Re: hahaha omg triple post. damn you LJ. XD
(Anonymous) 2005-12-28 03:10 pm (UTC)(link)*smiles sheepishly and shrugs* Meh, just an idea...
Anonymity... ^^; I'm always "Anonymous" because I don't have a LiveJournal ID. *pauses and squints at the 'from' section of the reply post* Although now that I think about it... What IS "OpenID"?
The reason I never sign anything is basically because I don't really have a web identity at this point. I've got my name on FF.Net - Kryal - but there's a bit of a backstory behind the name, and I'd really rather not use it anymore.
I have joked about calling myself "Professionally Anonymous" from time to time. :-P Heck, it's apt enough, given my posting habits - come on, how many people post page-long dissertations PRACTICALLY EVERY TIME THEY POST? :-P - and besides, I want to be a translator. Which means, if I do my job right, I really will be 'professionally Anonymous', with credit for my work mostly going to the original author... :-P
Re: Owch.
(Anonymous) 2005-12-28 03:15 pm (UTC)(link)Re: hahaha omg triple post. damn you LJ. XD
and thank you for the discussion, I did read your most recent replies, but uhh I was sleep deprived yesterday when i replied to you, slept like five hours, glanced at my email, intending to go back to bed right away, and then exploded all over that stupid reviewer. Then I was so shaky there was no way i'd sleep, and then it was morning anyway. [/babble]
x_x so yeah, I haven't slept since and i'm not going to make a lot of sense. I think i'm going to crash pretty soon. =___=;;;;
(eeee, i wanted to be a translator too. But. Not good enough yet. besides just french/english isn't enough. T_T)
Re: Owch.
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ok, the punctuation in this paragraph his confusing me. You've got ";" and "--". Which one is meant to separate stuff, and which is meant to tie things? if the "--" is meant to tie things, the later part of the paragraph makes sense but the earlier part doesn't, it makes it sound like he killed Sakura. (On a side note, I cannot think of a single instance in the series to date where Sasuke actually killed somebody. I don't doubt that he would if his mission required it, but we haven't seen him do it yet.) And if the ";" is meant to tie things, again, some things make sense and others don't. So could you clarify what's going on here?
Apart from that? Snape messing with Wormtail's head with Sasuke's weapons... the pedophilia thing (I don't blame Wormtail for thinking so, Sasuke is preeeeety, and Snape's a teacher and Wormtail thinks Snape is evil- put those last two together and add the first and it's a suspicious picture) And the Order is going to be all like "oh the poor kid, we must save him!" and then they break into Voldemort's dungeon to discover a great big hole in the door, several dead Death Eaters, and poor widdle Sasuke nowhere in sight. Sasuke is going to be nothing but trouble for both sides of the English wizards' conflict, all right :) I can't wait for more. Great job!
Re: Owch.
On the subject of interrogation...
(Anonymous) 2006-01-09 02:38 pm (UTC)(link)Can Sasuke's Sharingan copy spells?
If it can... he's had the Sharingan active since he arrived. Which means he's gotten pretty good looks at Petrificus Totalis, whatever other curses were flying around, Lumos... and Legimency.
I have to assume that Sharingan also gives him at least a basic idea of what something does - that, and experiencing it himself. Which means that, right there, you've given him the ultimate interrogation tool. If he were to figure out a way to cast Legimency on his own, he can then use it to get information without wasting time on language barriers and the like.
For that matter... he might even be able to use Sharingan to copy language. Not that he'd necessarily understand what's being said, but at the very least he could pick up the words easily enough, and when he got around to using them he probably wouldn't have an accent. (Remember, Sharingan enabled him to read muscle movements finely enough to duplicate what someone was writing, from behind the man - I don't think he was even able to see the man's hand!) Do that often enough, and he'd eventually begin sorting out meaning from context - which would give him words, and once he has words, he can probably figure out grammar on his own, although it would probably be sloppy (given that English has little rhyme and less reason :-P).
Although that, of course, would take quite some time, no doubt, and a fair bit of watching people. Which takes me back to the 'spying' idea.
One little reminder, though. Sharingan supposedly puts a great deal of stress on the body - or at least, it's enough to knock Kakashi out for a bit. Perhaps it's less of a stress for someone who was born to Uchiha blood, but still, maintaining it constantly has got to be draining. (Makes you wonder why Itachi is always going around with it activated...)
~Professionally Anonymous~
Re: On the subject of interrogation...
okay so. I had started thinking about magic and chakra before, but I forget exactly what I decided. In any case -- Sasuke's sharingan will see the flow of magic, but he won't be able to duplicate most spells, or not exactly anyway since he uses a totally different way to concentrate and "aim" his chakra/magic. Not the spells that make totally random stuff happen, anyway...hm. I would have to look at a list and decide from there.
Anyway, chakra and inherent magic power are roughly the same, but the ways of using it are totally different, so unless the spell works in a way that matches a way to use chakra closely, Sasuke won't be able to duplicate it exactly. (he might invent a ninja way of getting about the same result from what he sees, though -- if he finds it useful. I think he'd be totally not interested in a spell to clean socks.)
-I think Lumos is something he would be able to sort of do, since it's just concentrating some energy in a point just outside of his body and shifting it into the visible spectrum. He already knows how to concentrate his energy into his hand. He just has to figure out the trick of using the least energy possible for the greatest light, otherwise it will be seriously wasted.
-Serpensortia is, basically, another way to summon snakes -- so he already knows the wandless, ritualistic version. All invocations and ritualistic magics are things he knows, that exist at home in some way. He can learn these. Though as they need a written component, specific ingredients like dragon's teeth or virgin blood, and/or a contract, the sharingan is only useful up to a point. He'll know what to do if he gets his hands on the stuff he needs, but he still needs it.
-Shoving your energy into other people's body is in the realm of genjutsu to him, except it would mean that his being petrified is only an illusion and all in his mind, but it's not! His body is actually frozen. That's because of the wands, which concentrate and aim the magic, and allow it to be twisted and altered in ways the chakra, linked to the body, cannot. He doesn't have a wand, so he can't use a petrificus totalis. But the ways to break out of a genjutsu -- by disrupting your own chakra flow -- still help a bit, which is why the petrificus totalis didn't take entirely or on the first try.
-Legilimency needs a wand to concentrate, though he might have an easier time with that (if he sees it often enough) since it's closer to genjutsu (less physical effects) and since having the sharingan probably means having predispositions.
I could argue that his sharingan is OMGawesome and he can copy EVERYTHING with it, but a) it would be boring and b) it would be boring. I don't like superpowered heroes. :D (besides sasuke is a little asshole and if there was no way to rein him in at all, and nothing he couldn't master in ten seconds flat, he would kill the whole cast in half a day or something) So the way i've decided, there's some stuff that is entirely out of his reach and will stay that way.
As for your language point -- heee. Yes! He can mimic their words and he's smart enough to learn from context. Though at first I plan to make him communicate through LALALA SPOILER-FREE ZONE LALALA. :D But eventually, he'll learn some english. NO TRANSLATION SPELL FOR YOU, YOU MEAN LITTLE BOY.
My theory is that Itachi goes around with it on all the time because he was so proud of his mangekyou sharingan that he used it too much and was all "haha, i'm so badass and have so much chakra, i can keep it on all the time, no sweat" and now he has no other choice than to let it turned on because otherwise he'll be BLIND. So basically his super-weapon comes with its own inbuilt "report abuse" button. XD
Re: On the subject of interrogation...
(Anonymous) 2006-01-10 12:45 am (UTC)(link)*laughs* Meh, it's not that hard. I post rarely enough that I can keep mental tabs on where I've put comments, so that I can meander back and check every now and again. :-P And I will get an LJ... eventually. But not right now. I barely have the time to do things that I'm supposed to be doing! (*is currently taking a class which involves subtitling a movie... and is now in utter awe of the people who do fansubs, even if anime is generally easier to understand than live action...*)
he might invent a ninja way of getting about the same result from what he sees, though -- if he finds it useful. I think he'd be totally not interested in a spell to clean socks.
*cheeky grin* Oh, I dunno. Having a way to get your clothes cleaned off without stopping to wash them on a mission would be very nice, and minimize time spent vulnerable as well as preventing your clothes from attracting unpleasant things. And tactically sound, too - after all, spend a few days out in the woods, and you're going to be pretty rank. It would be quite embarrassing to successfully sneak into the enemy stronghold, only to have someone literally sniff you out! (...Or, maybe not so embarrassing. Kakashi has shown that ninja have pretty good noses!) :-P Sorry, just being silly.
No, he can't copy everything with Sharingan - or rather, he can COPY a lot of stuff, but being able to use it doesn't necessarily follow. He might not have the necessary materials (a wand, ingredients), he might not have sufficient chakra (he can copy kage bunshin all he likes, he does NOT have Kyuubi sitting around feeding him Power-Ups), or he just might not be advanced enough or controlled enough yet. Knowing what you SHOULD be doing is a far cry from being able to replicate it yourself - take it from someone who does a bit of martial arts. Yes, Sasuke probably has vastly better control over what his body does than I do. But he's also trying vastly more difficult techniques.
Sharingan, as far as I can see, gives you the KNOWLEDGE of how something is done. Whether or not you are even capable of it is something else entirely. And even if you CAN... being able to do something is a far, far cry from mastery.
I suspect the only reason Kakashi can copy and throw something right back at someone in mid-combat is because he HAS copied so many techniques - and probably learned how to use them all! That gives him a broad enough background to be able to guestimate what he needs to do on the fly.
The reason I brought up Legimency is because I BELIEVE that some wizards are capable of using it without a wand. That could be just me mixing fanon with canon, however. I would argue that it's an ability that Sasuke would be interested in learning - and if he can't learn it, imitating. Particularly if he could figure out a way to do it without the victim noticing. He is a suspicious little bastard, after all. The ability to even briefly scan a potential opponent's thoughts would be handy. :-P Beyond that, though... would he even WANT to learn most Wizard spells? Why bother with Lumos, when he probably has respectable natural night vision and the Sharingan as a backup? Carrying light is just another way of painting a big fat "SHOOT ME" target on yourself. Petrificus? Just scare them stiff, he's already run into at least two enemies (Zabuza and Orochimaru) who are capable of THAT. Besides, anything that requires four solid hits in order to take effect isn't worth the effort to sneeze at. And I suspect a lot of the daily wizard spells would just come off as being lazy. (What's the point of floating your pot over to you? It probably would take less time and mental effort to walk over and get it yourself.)
...That, or they'd just draw a truly award-winning "WTF?!" look from him. :-P
Itachi - oh, good, so I'm not the only one who thinks that's what happened.
Re: On the subject of interrogation...
... XD oh, I could see it. Perfect little killer ninja, with his bag full of clean and pressed mesh shirts and carefully darned dark clothes.
Well, I took the lack of inherent power as a given. but I mean, there are some spells of his group age's level at Hogwarts, and even first year level, that he just won't be able to do, even with a wand. He's not a wizard.
As for the Legilimency -- sure, it would be awfully useful. Maybe too much. I can see him learning a form of occlumency out of pure self-defense, but legilimency is a high-level spell and requires years and years of practice to be anywhere near competent. I don't want to have him be too awesome by adding mind-reading to his already lethal array of skills. So maybe he'll learn how to catch a few impressions from people who aren't paying attention, or who are too open, but I doubt i'll make him a good legilimens. If only because he might not have that long. I still don't know. XD
There are hints in canon that Snape might be able to use some wandless legilimency -- harry refers several time to being looked at as if snape could read his mind, or as if he was trying to look through his skull or stuff like that, when he catches the trio after they've been doing forbidden stuff again. (though that could just be that he's glaring and that he has experience with lying schoolboys) He never goes right out and yells "I know you did this and that!!" so I think the wandless kind might be less powerful -- he gets a feeling of general truthfulness, maybe the feelings of the person at the moment -- harry's resentment or his sentiment of "lalala you'll never prove it, bastard" -- butif he had details on what exactly happened, then he would have accused them a lot more clearly and they wouldn't have been able to get away with as much as they did.
Sharingan might track the movements of a target, but if he wants to read or to see details or something, Lumos would be useful. he's too much of a ninja to need a light when he goes sneaking around in the dark, but he might still find it interesting to know -- besides, ninja versus ninja, he's almost caught -- FLASH IN THEIR EYES, and woohoo, they're blinded. XD
He doesn't need petrificus. If he wants to capture someone he can knock them out and tie them up, after all. XD he's just going to learn more of the mechanisms to see if he can counter it entirely.
The daily wizard spells he would scoff at -- but mostly he'd just be unable to do them, I think. His chakra doesn't work like that, directly affecting Matter. He needs to create stuff that then acts on things around him (like his fire), he couldn't... make a pan wash itself, for example; some other people would use chakra strings or air pressure or whatever to make things move, or heck, they might have a "steel-control-no-jutsu" of some sort, though that seems unlikely, but they still wouldn't affect the thing itself from afar without doing more than shoving a little chakra at it. For sasuke, it's more efficient to get up and do it himself, than to figure a way to twists his jutsus to mimic the movements of a sponge scrubbing a pan.
Itachi - hubris, mmm.
Re: On the subject of interrogation...
(Anonymous) 2006-01-10 12:24 pm (UTC)(link)Three. Frickin'. Hours. To watch eighteen minutes. And write down the dialog for the first eight. THREE HOURS. TO GET EIGHT MINUTES. And there were THREE of us. And we weren't even TRANSLATING. Just... Ahem.
All apologies. /rant
Sasuke not being a wizard: quite true, and a very good point to make. Shinobi aren't wizards and it's unreasonable to expect them to be able to do the things that wizards do. Just as it's probably unreasonable to expect wizards to to be able to replicate the shinobi just 'cuz they have MAGIK!
About Legimency: very good point, again, about it being over-powerful. I think that the power would be balanced by the fact that anyone in a Legimency trance would be vulnerable to attack (I note that Wormtail was apparantly sneaking up behind Snape while Snape was reading Sasuke's mind), and by the fact that it seems fairly simple to break out of, and leaves the attacker vulnerable. And there are probably more ways of defending against it than Occulmency.
I guess what I was thinking was that if Sasuke were to make his own jutsu variant, it would probably work very much in the way the hints of wandless jutsu do - no thoughts, no memories, just a quick scan of what's on the surface. Heck, Sharingan does that already to a certain extent, by enabling you to read an opponent's body language precisely. (*thinking back to Kakashi's fight with Zabuza here*)
I have a bit of a question, though: WHY did it take four 'Petrificus Totalis' spells to freeze him? If the spell were mental, I might buy it - after all, he was in a berserk state, and he's probably built up some resistance by now just from being around a bunch of manipulators and fanatics (aka Sound). But if it's physical...?
Re: On the subject of interrogation...
... ahaha now i'm imagining Ron spitting fire out of his mouth. He would only burn himself or something, and then he'd cough up smoke for an hour.
It's not really that they're entirely vulnerable, it's -- well, he was paying attention to Sasuke's mind, which was in absolute turmoil; Snape couldn't really flutter through without really paying attention and hope to get anything out of it. Voldemort could legilimize Wormtail, for example, and he would still be aware of what goes on outside, because wormtail would only stay here and tremble and wait for it to end.
(one good way of defending against it would be not to meet their eyes in the first place. Sasuke doesn't have much of a choice right now. Whoops. Or he could knock them out. XD even if they saw what's coming, he'd be too quick to dodge.)
^^; I thought I had explained the petrificus before. My bad. I decided that Petrificus works by infusing someone with your chakra/magic and then kind of very slightly trans their body to make the muscles/flesh freeze solid. (except not cold. XD I also assume that unless you voluntarily overload a petrificus, it has a safeguard for heartbeat and breathing to continue) And genjutsu, in canon, works by shoving your chakra into someone and messing with their chakra field so they have vertigo attacks or hear or see things that aren't there. (If you're good, it forms coherent images, we're not sure if they partly come from the victim's subconscious or are wholly the responsibility of the caster. I guess it depends on the type.). it's more subtle and not as rooted in the physical world, but it's still a disruption of the body by the forced introduction of magic/chakra. The way to defend against genjutsu is to voluntarily twist or disrupt your chakra (note, it doesn't work against mangekyou-powered illusions, we still don't know why.) So Sasuke resisted against the spell the way he would resist a genjutsu, by distupting its flow within himself. Sadly, genjutsu is a lot more subtle and not actually solid, and it only travels through the chakra system, whereas magic produces actual physical changes and can also propagate through the flesh itself. So he could shake the hold of the spell briefly by making his own chakra coils change the distribution of chakra inside him, but in the end he couldn't reverse the spell for good, only slow it down. Does that make sense?
Now that he knows the trick, it could take six or seven petrificus to get him down next time, but assuming they all hit, he will eventually lose the battle again. I'm not sure what that will do to his heart, though. ~_~; (hm. Think if he's half petrified and manages to escape the caster he'll eventually get back to normal? We know that when the caster dies, the spell is broken, but attacking might not be an option at the time... *ponders*)
Re: On the subject of interrogation...
Re: On the subject of interrogation...
(Anonymous) 2006-01-11 12:51 am (UTC)(link)True, it would be very... difficult... to figure out what the heck was going on in Sasuke's mind, unless you really focused. Imagine! Someone actually FIGHTING Legimancy! The nerve! ...mind your step. Puddles of dripping sarcasm are rather viciously acidic. :-P
Before entering the next section, a word of warning: I'm in a debating mood. Be prepared. :-P
Petrificus - you mentioned it, but not in detail. So it's part mental, part physical? That I'll buy, but... if you can change the chakra flow in your body itself, wouldn't that disrupt the physical effects as well as the mental? *shrugs* I suppose I don't entirely buy into the 'partially transform part of the flesh' argument. For one thing, that would cause serious systemic damage - sort of like a minor-degree, full-body frostbite. Even if you say that it isn't cold per se, I think a transformation like that would probably be fairly painful at the very least. I never really put much thought into how the spells work (magic being the balognium of Rowling :-P), but if I were to venture a guess, a spell like Petrificus Totalis, which completely paralyzes the body, would probably work by either disrupting the messages your brain is sending - thus explaining why it doesn't affect things like breathing and heartbeat, since those function on a different level - or (if I may borrow your 'infuse someone with chakra/magic' explanation) you use your own energy in order to send the wrong signals - 'hold still' rather than 'move.'
So a genjutsu defense WOULDN'T work, because you're focusing the defensive chakra on your mind, rather than your body. But I think that jolting the chakra in your body would probably have the same result on a physical bind of that nature that the mental jolt has on mental bindings like genjutsu. Not that either solution is very PLEASANT, since we're talking about a form of shock therapy here. *smirks and flexes fingers* ZAP. :-P
Not to mention, that kind of shock therapy is more Neji's style than Sasuke's... Neji is the one who does the full-body chakra emission.
I suppose it boils down to how you view magic and chakra, and by extension wizards and shinobi. From my point of view, magic and chakra are not the same thing - but they ARE damn close to each other. The trick is that they have different specializations. Likewise, there are similarities between wizards and shinobi (the phrase 'seven impossible things before breakfast and make it seem normal' comes to mind...), but they have different specialties. Shinobi are, frankly, finely tuned fighting machines. Magic has a few combat-based spells, yes, but it isn't geared entirely towards combat. Thus, when it comes to fighting, combat, and other such violence-based conflicts, by my general assumption a shinobi is probably going to win over a wizard, unless there are some extenuating circumstances. (...getting outnumbered lots to one would probably count as one of those circumstances, I'll add.) Hence the feeling that a shinobi can probably top any spells a wizard comes up with FOR COMBAT, or figure out a way around them.
In addition, I've noticed that wizard spells are not particularly flexible - point, chant, get result. No making up new tricks on the fly, generally. On the other hand, wizard spells tend to be much more varied and versatile, and are certainly better suited to non-combat situations.
Legimency is one of the grey areas. *shrugs* My bet would be that shinobi would be better at defending against it than casting it, but hey, that's just my guess.
*shrugs* This is more or less a purely academic discussion, by the way - I like your writing enough to trust you to know what you're doing, it's just that I have never been able to turn down a good chance for a friendly debate. :-P
Re: On the subject of interrogation...
(Anonymous) 2006-01-11 12:54 am (UTC)(link)Breaking out of Petrificus... that depends on how much effort is involved in maintaining the spell. I have to assume that the spell will wear off eventually, if the caster doesn't maintain it - and presumably, maintenance can be prevented by more than just the death of the caster. Distance, for example, or distraction. (If it just lasted forever without the caster needing to do anything, you could just Petrify an opponent and leave them to rot/starve. That just makes it too powerful.) In addition, I have to assume that some sort of counter-curse exists...
Actually, since you seem to think about these things - one aspect of wizardry a la Rowling is that there doesn't appear to be any energy drain from casting spells. You swish, you flick, you pronounce correctly, and the spell casts. So, does magic draw energy from the caster the way chakra drains a jutsu-user?
Ah, and Itachi... who knows? Maybe he just keeps pumping new chakra in to replace what the defender disrupts? That would explain why it's so difficult to maintain...
...by the by, I feel really silly asking, but... is Anon-chan referring to me? *tilts her head to the side and blinks ingenuously*
~Professionally Anonymous~
PS: About that long rant earlier about shinobi as compared to wizards in a combat situation? Note that I was referring to fully grown and trained shinobi vs. fully grown and trained wizards...
Re: On the subject of interrogation...
(Anonymous) 2006-10-31 08:47 am (UTC)(link)It´s one of my favourite crossover fics ever and my favourite by you.
Re: On the subject of interrogation...